Posted on 10/10/2007 4:31:54 PM PDT by wagglebee
The Church is hierarchical, but the "chain of command" isn't identical to what we're familiar with in military or corporate worlds. The Pope does indeed appoint bishops, but the bishops then hold their office in their own right ... they aren't subordinate to the Pope in the way that CPL Jones is subordinate to SGT Smith. The person responsible for excommunicating grossly scandalous public sinners in San Fransicko is the Bishop of San Fransisco.
That would be George Niederaur.
You see the problem?
First off, he needs to be appointed to some other post. Like, maybe, a cell in an isolated contemplative monastery. The monks could make sure he doesn't cause any trouble. Then, appoint a bishop with guts.
“heresiarch
Now, there’s a word you don’t see every day.”
You’ve just got to love the English language!
“Talk to Archbishop Burke ...”
Would that he were calling the shots, at least around here!
Whatever their interior intentions may be, by approaching Holy Communion in garb that is a mockery of a Nun's habit, they are giving scandal. And by giving them Holy Communion, the priest or bishop is also giving scandal. Additionally, they are acting as a near occasion of sin. Maybe they have repented ... but their actions (by dressing the way they do) suggest otherwise, indeed suggest that homosexuality and transvestitism are perfectly OK. Other folks, also afflicted with those sins, would see them and be led NOT to repent.
If this is true, the Archbishop must be far gone in dementia. However, I think we need to be cautious about accepting home videos as evidence of anything.
Thank you for your sweeping generalizations! They may not be true but they give you a convenient excuse to object to any reunification of the Churches, which you apparently oppose. How many Catholic bishops do you know for a fact permit Communion to be given to active homosexuals or to cohabitating couples? What this archbishop did was clearly wrong but it is not typical of the Catholic bishops in the U.S. to do things like this. Before you condemn the Church for officially tolerating this kind of abuse, let’s see whether or not the Holy See disciplines this archbishop.
It is clear to me that you hate the Catholic Church and are only too happy to bash it when the opportunity arises.
I wish this pope would get with the technology and have his office issue some “this is just plain wrong” statements.
It is obvious the US bishops actually don’t care about homosexuals infesting the ranks.
ok show it.
Which bishops have actually refused publicly?
“They may not be true but they give you a convenient excuse to object to any reunification of the Churches, which you apparently oppose.”
I think you’ll find that I am among the last people here on FR to object to a reunion of the Roman Church and the Orthodox Churches and further am among the biggest cheerleaders for +BXVI. I am, however, very, very concerned about the lunacy and, frankly, heresy, which seems to permeate much of the Roman Church, at least in the First World. I know that +BXVI isn’t part of this; I don’t know if a majority of First World bishops are for or against what this article speaks to. It is pretty plain that the majority of Roman bishops here in the States are not overly concerned about protecting the Eucharist otherwise they would be flocking to Archbishop Burke’s position. Orthodox Christians take the Eucharist very seriously. We Greeks are viewed by the West as strict, the Russians, however, make us look like agnostics. Another thing you should understand, sfc, Orthodox Christians have a positive religious duty to condemn heresy when they see it, whether it be from a hierarch, a priest, a monastic or a layperson. We honestly believe, and have no problem pointing out, that the floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops. If there ever is a reunion, we’ll keep right on doing that!
“It is clear to me that you hate the Catholic Church and are only too happy to bash it when the opportunity arises.”
I’ll bash both the Roman and the Orthodox Churches when the need arises. It has nothing to do with hatred. It has to do with religious obligation and love for The Church, Orthodox and Roman.
You yourself said that they should not be given Communion if they continue in their behavior. I say that their behavior is already quite ongoing, and their motto, "Go and sin some more," betrays their true current mindset. That mindset is not one of a person in a state of grace, and the Eucharist should be denied them. Their whole attire and attitude is a stentorian proclamation of their opposition to authentic Catholic moral teaching.
That any given individual in this group could have a change of heart between entering the Church and going to Communion, as you noted, is not denied. But such a person still needs to be restored to grace by the Sacrament of Reconciliation, and there is no comepelling reason for that person to receive without taking that necessary action. On the contrary, such a person should know that their present attire and initial motivation for attending church would cause a scandal if he were to receive, and his nwfound respect for things catholic should motivate him to abstain, in this instance, until he has cleansed himself sacramentally.
The bishop should have exhorted these men to repentance, and laid out their obligation to receive absolution before daring to receive. He should have made this opportunity available. He should have asked anyone repenting of their complicity in this mockery to voluntarily abstain from receiving in their present attire, in order to avoid the manifest scandal of people receiving while appearing to be in a clear state of mortal sin. Then he should have welcomed back "tomorrow" anyone willing to take him up on his offer to provide absolution and moral guidance, asking them to "dress appropriately" and, interiorly, "put on the new nature, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness." (Ephesians 4:24)
Did the man answer Fr. Pavone’s invitation dressed as a hanger, as his dead sister with a hanger or as an aborted fetus? I’m pretty sure he didn’t. God bless him in his humility.
Everyone has a story, but it’s not working anymore; All the mistakes have been seen, their consequences known. Time to roll it back, wheat/chaff, parents (notice the plural, married), what is a husband, wife, son, daughter in your holy family? We all must be taught in truth.
Between you and I, only God knows the heart and state of the soul; Just from my view... I see no purpose of amendment... we’d have to have one serious talk. Sure they’re crying out for help, while scandalizing others.
P.S. You CAN go to Mass and not receive as well you know.
The unholy mockery re: clothing is still scandal though.
I thank the Lord for preventing his lowly animal subject (me), from walking in on one of these. God knows I have issues... and trust me, bail would be involved. Sure i’d still pray for them before, during and after... That’s just past my breaking point.
Personal responsibility, read the scriptures. BTW, that glorious book also has many verses on morality and modesty.
So am I, Kolo. I know (and I'm sure you do) that many Catholics are touchy about this, but faithful Orthodox are very close to us, and their comments in respectful charity (as your have been) deserve to be heard in that same spirit.
I am gravely concerned about the spiritual condition of MOST Catholic priests and bishops in the developed world. I thoroughly believe that the enemy is attacking us all-out, with a violence not seen since the 4th century. Apostasy from and open opposition to (small "O") orthodox Christianity is widespread, especially in high places.
St. Michael the archangel, pray for us.
E-mail addresses for the Apostolic Nuncio and Holy Father:
Archbishop Flynn (St. Paul) and Archbisop George (Chicago) have denied communion to rainbow sashers.
I do agree that the majority of Bishops (at least in the US and Europe) are weak bishops, at best, some even believe in heresy- But even as the majority we are able to recognize that they are weak bishops because we can compare their actions to what the Catholic Faith Teaches.
There have always been bad bishops, bad priests, and even bad popes. Doesn’t change the faith, just makes for a heavier cross.
Yer honor,
we rest our case.
ping to #54
Oh, c’mon! You have consistent attitude to lack at the utter WORST in the Catholic faith, and overlook every single good thing. Get the plank out of your own eye first!
Look, not lack.
is it possible the Archbishop is one of THEM????
Protestants to the end. Opposing is all you can do.
Who was the recent cardinal of SF elevated to the Congregation of Doctrine of the FAithful (or some title like that?)
How did his diocese prior to SF fare with charges brought against it?
How did the LA diocese fare in court? How many other cities?
We all have things in our denominations that need fixing, but if there’s something rotten in Denmark, brother, then you’ve gotta fix it.
It’s just gotta be more important than blasting away at us protestants.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.