While awaiting the other posted to/with whom you entered the challenge, allow me to address the other baptism verses you asked me about. With all the other things I had to do today, this didn't get addressed until this evening (it's 6:44 PM back here in Tennessee). I'm pinging others who might be interested in this exchange, not trying to call in reinforcement troops.
Matt. 3: 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, suffer it to be so now: for thus it bbecometh us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he suffered him. [ You need to take the LDS markers out when you drag and post to FR threads … the underlined is an illustration. As I mentioned last night, Jesus needed no baptism for righteousness, but He did submit to be baptized to start his Rabbinical service. ]
Matt. 28: 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [ Neither of us would quarrel with this command in the new covenant. But it does not come down either way as to the necessity of baptism for salvation, so we will keep moving along in your word-search generated drag and paste exercise. ]
Luke 7: 30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him. [ This passage is better understood if one takes the perspective that ‘being not baptized of Him’ relates to not being ‘in’ Him, and speaks not a single deciding thing as to what importance water baptism has. So we move on … ]
John 3: 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. [The previous verses and exchanges show us that Jesus was referring to the water of the womb: John 3:3-5 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. ]
Acts 2: 38 Then Peter said unto them, repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the holy Ghost. [ Was Jesus Christ the means for remission of sin, or was the baptism in water you seem to prefer? ]
Acts 10: 47-48
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the holy Ghost as well as we? [ Having received already the Holy Spirit of God into them, they are already cleansed in the Blood of Jesus. Does the water make them cleaner? ]
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. [ Submitting oneself for baptism ‘unto Jesus’ is the outward sign of the believer’s commitment to Jesus, to be transformed by the presence of His Spirit indwelling them. ]
Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. [ Again, I say to you that the Greek text had no punctuations such as commas to divide the clauses, so the ‘and’ is the operant divider; the text reads ‘arise AND be baptized AND wash away thy sins calling on the name of the Lord. ONLY the blood of Jesus washes away thy sins. ]
Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. [ They believed, were saved, then submitted for baptism. The text does not imply they were baptized to be saved for it was their belief in what Philip preached concerning the kingdom of God AND the name of Jesus Christ. ]
Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Hebrews 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of claying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. [ As with the first verse above which contains an extra “b” your drag and paste from church teaching aides has an extra “c” with ‘laying on of hands’. Preceeding the verse you pasted is this verse:
“Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God”. And following the verse you pasted is this: “And this will we do, if God permit.” Putting together 6:1 and 6:2 and 6:3 without the non-Greek punctuations, we have a different picture than the single out of context verse you pasted: “Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ let us go on unto perfection not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God of the doctrine of baptisms and of laying on of hands and of resurrection of the dead and of eternal judgment. And this will we do if God permit.”
May I ask you to question your heart? … Which is more important, faith toward God, doctrine of baptism, repentance from dead works, laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead? You can see that the first is the single most important because all the others can flow from that. And scripture/THE WORD OF GOD confirms this when it/HE teaches ‘by faith Abraham believed God and it was counted for him righteousness.
When you consider the Blood of Christ, what might you add to that Blood to achieve righteousness? If I ask you what is the means of your Salvation, do you say ‘Oh the Blood of Jesus, BUT I need to do all that I can do …?” Once you were born into the lineage of your father, is there any means you may apply that will ‘de relate you‘, take you out of being his son? Once you are born of His Spirit, at the confession with your mouth that He is your deliverer, your redeemer, you are born into His family. As a member of His family, you will do certain things He directs, such as being baptized to acknowledge Him before men --for if you will not acknowledge He is your Savior before men, why would He represent you before His Father in Heaven? The baptism doesn’t save you by addition to what He has already done, the works that you do or allow Him to do in you do not save you; His Blood applied to the doorpost and lintel of your spirit Saves you, THEN you are called to behave as His child in His family.
Pax Vobiscum
Why are you calling Jim R. to this discussion of baptism? Just curious.
While I find your interpretation of these passages on essential need for baptism to be interesting, I don't find them historical. Baptism has always been a requirement in the Church of Christ. We will have to disagree on this matter.
Besides the many biblical references I gave, these references from early Christians on the nessesity of baptism may interest you:
"For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, "Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." Justin Martyr, First Apology 61, in ANF 1:183.
"And dipped himself," says [the Scripture], "seven times in Jordan." It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [it served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: "Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." A fragment attributed to Irenaeus, in ANF 1:574, brackets in original.
"And do not think, though you were more pious than all the pious that ever were, but if you be unbaptized, that you shall ever obtain hope. For all the more, on this account, you shall endure the greater punishment, because you have done excellent works not excellently. For well-doing is excellent when it is done as God has commanded. But if you will not be baptized according to His pleasure, you serve your own will and oppose His counsel. But perhaps some one will say, What does it contribute to piety to be baptized with water? In the first place, because you do that which is pleasing to God; and in the second place, being born again to God of water, by reason of fear you change your first generation, which is of lust, and thus you are able to obtain salvation. But otherwise it is impossible. For thus the prophet has sworn to us, saying, "Verily I say to you, Unless ye be regenerated by living water into the name of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven." Clementine Homilies 11:25-26, in ANF 8:289-290.
Nay, he that, out of contempt, will not be baptized, shall be condemned as an unbeliever, and shall be reproached as ungrateful and foolish. For the Lord says: "Except a man be baptized of water and of the Spirit, he shall by no means enter into the kingdom of heaven." And again: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Apostolic Constitutions 6:15, in ANF 7:456-457.
Also, here are some great examples of ancient baptismal fonts. There were permanent fixtures that were part of the communities. I'm also throwing in a interesting photo of a brass Catholic font from the 12th Century that will be sort of recognizable to some familiar with the fonts in LDS temples.
