“If it was the same as what Reverend Sun Myung Moon claimed, or Jeffords it would have testified of them.”
Yet, if I asked Rev. Moon, who claims to be Christ, or if
I asked Mr. Jeffords, who claims to be the Prophet over the
other mormon group, they would both tell me exactly what you
said! Their testimony left your mormon truth out. Surely, if
you were right, their personal truth would have validated
it.
Their standard for knowing truth is your standard - personal experience. What makes your personal experience valid and their personal experience invalid?
You and other mormons who post here and ones I have spoken
with in person, frequently and almost exclusively resort back
to the burning experience as the basis of truth - subjective,
personal experience that trumps objective sources of truth...
and as demonstrated by illustration above, invalid.
If you are going to claim it is the foundation of all, I would
think you could explain these obvious discrepancies.
ampu
That is the wrong question. There is no point asking whether another person's personal experience is valid: I cannot directly know anything about his mental or emotional state.
A better question would be, How do you know what is true?
You and other mormons who post here and ones I have spoken with in person, frequently and almost exclusively resort back to the burning experience as the basis of truth - subjective, personal experience that trumps objective sources of truth... and as demonstrated by illustration above, invalid.
Note that subjective does not mean "false" or "invalid." Subjective knowledge is that which is private. It could be argued that most if not all that we know is based on our personal experience, which is inherently private and therefore subjective.
Likewise, objective does not mean "true" or "valid." Objective knowledge is supposed to be publicly demonstrable.
You refer to "objective sources of truth." I am curious: Just what "objective" sources of religious truth do you have in mind?
“Yet, if I asked Rev. Moon, who claims to be Christ, or if
I asked Mr. Jeffords, who claims to be the Prophet over the
other mormon group, they would both tell me exactly what you
said! Their testimony left your mormon truth out. Surely, if
you were right, their personal truth would have validated
it.”
Hence you should not just take someone’s word for it when they claim such a thing. Put some faith into what the scriptures say and do it and find out for yourself.
I will stand before God and account for my life to him, not you or Jeffords or anyone else. Likewise each of them will also have to stand before God and account for their life. The fact that some people make claims contrary to what I have experienced means nothing to me. If someone says the sky is green and the grass is blue I’m not going to pay it any attention.
You could just as easily ask, how did Moses know when he saw the burning bush and heard the voice that it was from God? How did John know when he wrote Revelation that his vision was from God? How do you know that those events were of God too?
“personal experience valid and their personal experience invalid”
I didn’t have their experience, I can’t judge their mental state or honesty, I don’t know if they had been using any mind altering substances, I don’t know if they actually experienced the fruits of the spirit durring their claimed event or if they misunderstood it or what. The only experience I am in a position to judge is my own.
“You and other mormons who post here and ones I have spoken
with in person, frequently and almost exclusively resort back
to the burning experience as the basis of truth”
And what vision or revelation in the Bible is not a subjective experience?
“subjective, personal experience that trumps objective sources of truth...
and as demonstrated by illustration above, invalid.”
You’ve only demonstrated that different people make contradictory claims. You have not established that those people all had in fact the same kind of experience, that their accounts are honest, and accurate. God is perfectly capable of communicating with us in many different ways, and what God reveals is true even when it appears to conflict with what men think to be true.
If you are unwilling to trust the promises in the scriptures and use prayer to increase your understanding, there is nothing else that will be a suitable substitute. If you are going to resist any manner of divine communication unless it forces itself on you and comes with scientifically verifiable proof then you lack faith. If you are just looking for an excuse to avoid trying it, then ask yourself why should a Christian avoid praying about something so important?’ There is no good answer, Satan teaches a man to not pray, not God.
You can either do it and find out or remain frustrated in the dark. Your choice.
A question I have asked often on these threads.
The replies are typical of the arrogance of the mormon position, "there is no truth but OUR truth", especially evident in Grig's statement, You’ve only demonstrated that different people make contradictory claims. You have not established that those people all had in fact the same kind of experience, that their accounts are honest, and accurate. God is perfectly capable of communicating with us in many different ways, and what God reveals is true even when it appears to conflict with what men think to be true.
Also the closing statement in his post: You can either do it and find out or remain frustrated in the dark. Your choice.
IMO, these statements are excellent examples of the lies told to those who are exhorted by them to "study and pray and the answer will be given".....the lie is in the fact that to mormons, the "answer" MUST be THEIR ANSWER or the study and prayer done are faulty in some way.
Note the phrase, " God is perfectly capable of communicating with us in many different ways, and what God reveals is true even when it appears to conflict with what men think to be true." The unspoken message in that is that "God reveals OUR truth, but the rest of you just THINK He reveals His truth to YOU!
Next time the young, fresh-faced, clean cut young men come knocking at your door, remember that. And the next time your clean-living, kind, "nicest people in the world" mormon neighbors wave at you over the back fence, remember that. THEY believe that spiritually, they are much better "blessed" than you are and that you are "wandering in the dark."
What the nation faces with Romney is the possibility that there could be someone as POTUS who deep down, in his heart, TRULY believes the same way. That HIS truth is the ONLY truth, and in that case, he is justified in whatever he does...a dangerous flaw in a President.