>> There is nothing that establishes that Christ walked on water, or that Mary was in fact a virgin when she gave birth, or that Christ did in fact live a sinless life except for the word of the apostles. <<
Not of those particuliar events, but those events are not the ones that the apostles used to establish their authority. And, of course, the Virgin birth was prophesied about, in prophesies revealed before the events in question. And given what was established about Jesus, his sinless nature is sort of presumptive, is it not? (Would the son of God sin?)
>> Validating the existence of places and persons and some events doesn’t prove the Bible is the word of God. <<
Not entirely. But I do believe that the human soul innately longs for the teachings of the gospel and of the apostles to be true. And such details are attested to by the apostles and the early Church, as opposed to the Book of Mormon, which was unknown to them.
>> There were many who did see them and handle them. They testified of it and their testimony is contained in the BoM. <<
Yah, like I noted in my later post... a lawyer would only ever put one of the witnesses on the stand. And he only “saw” the plates long after he had a very strong invested interest.
>> Smith claims he translated from an ancient language. Well, if he had written down the ancient language, that would certainly testify on his behalf... but he didn’t <<
A few characters hardly testifies to anything. Even if it had been in actual Egyptian, it would at least mean something, but of course it’s in “reformed Egyptian” so no-one could ever know if it were authentic. Just another unfalsifiable claim. But isn’t odd how with all the archaeological discoveries (King Tut’s tomb, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the City of Jericho), no-one’s ever found significant corroboration for the existence of reformed Egyptian? Of course, part of the problem is that the sample is uselessly small, so it’d easy to find slight clues and bits of evidence, but hard to find significant corroboration.
>> There was nothing re-translated...<<
My bad... I remembered the story wrong. The point is that Smith couldn’t recreate what he had already written, which seems quite odd, except for Smith’s convenient excuse.
>> That’s painting with a pretty broad brush. I also disagree with the claim. There are many evidences of many different kinds that support the claims of the BoM, also evidence that ‘unique’ aspects of Mormonism were in fact part of early Christianity as Joseph claimed. <<
A very broad brush should be easy to disprove, no? And yet, you do not offer a single example.
>> It isn’t our job to force anyone to believe anything. <<
No, but you could come up with a reason I should believe you.
“Not of those particuliar events, but those events are not the ones that the apostles used to establish their authority. And, of course, the Virgin birth was prophesied about, in prophesies revealed before the events in question. And given what was established about Jesus, his sinless nature is sort of presumptive, is it not?”
But those things are key to the validity of Christianity. Anti-Christians will claim Mary or Christ or the apostles just made things up to portray Christ as the fulfillment of prophecies for their own reasons.
Now I don’t believe those accusations either, but I don’t base my faith on what man’s intellect can discern, and neither did most early Christians who had nothing more to go on but the then things they were told that they had no way ot confirm.
Consider some heathen in Corinth in 150AD. Some Christian guy tells him that God himself was born of a virgin way over in Jerusalem, did all kinds of miracles, was killed and rose from the dead three days later. There is no internet, there is no way for that Corinthian to confirm any of the people being talked about even existed or that any of these events actually happened or that any of these supposed witnesses (now dead) actualy saw what they claimed or even said they saw what this Christian guy is saying they claimed. Yet by the power of the Holy Ghost his heart is touched and he has a firm conviction that it is true. Not for any logical reason, but because of a spiritual experience, and the conviction is strong even to the point where he is willing to die a horrible death rather than deny Christ.
It’s based on knowledge that comes from the Spirit of God. If you base your belief on what man can prove and reason out, then you reject the power of the Holy Spirit to lead people to the truth as promised.
“And he only “saw” the plates long after he had a very strong invested interest.”
They stuck with their testimony when they had no vested interest in maintaining that it was true.
“But isn’t odd how with all the archaeological discoveries (King Tut’s tomb, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the City of Jericho), no-one’s ever found significant corroboration for the existence of reformed Egyptian?”
http://en.fairmormon.org/index.php/Book_of_Mormon_anachronisms:Reformed_Egyptian
“The point is that Smith couldn’t recreate what he had already written, “
For a time after that the gift of translating was taken from Joseph altogether until he and Martin repented of not taking the Lord’s council as seriously as they should have. He was unable to translate any portion of it then. After a time his gift was restored and he was told not to re-translate that part again as doing so would fall into the trap being set for him.
Martin Harris supports Joseph’s version of events, he sacrificed much to help bring the BoM forth and never denied the truth of it even when he had motive to do so.
“A very broad brush should be easy to disprove, no?”
Sure, I can say that Joseph claimed Jesus was the Christ and there certainly are records supporting that claim so you are wrong to say ‘there’s no record of anything Smith claims’. If you want to have a meaningful discussion of these things however it would help to be more focused and not paint with so broad a brush.
“No, but you could come up with a reason I should believe you.”
That sounds so very much like ‘except you show me a sign I will not believe’. I’m not even asking you to believe me, I’m asking you to find out from God. You can choose to rely on God’s wisdom and do that or to rely on man’s wisdom and not do that. No skin off my nose either way, but for your sake I hope you trust in God, not man.