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To: restornu; Grig

Restornu, you say that I have to totally surrender with a humble and contrite heart, and then I will receive the witness of the Holy Ghost? And what will that witness be?

You say I have to have not just an open mind, but an entirely contrite and humble heart. It sounds very similar to Catholic spirituality but with one critical difference: in Catholicism, it is the endproduct of rational exploration, not the start; the open mind leads to learning the truth, which leads to a heart broken (”contrite” is one of those Catholic Latinisms for “broken”) by having believed in lies, which is healed by Jesus. A belief which starts with a contrite heart and total surrender of the will, but which is not supported by an *objective* experience is what is called a self-delusion.

Now, I’ve seen loads of self-deluded Christians who just happen to be correct. A sort of much-friendlier version of “just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean they aren’t out to get you” would be “just because you’re a self-deluded Christian doesn’t mean Christianity isn’t true.” I can’t tell you how many charismatics and ex-charismatics believed many of the spiritual signs stem from simply WANTING them to be true, but then found a truer, less dramatic Christianity to be entirely rational.

So, I’m not expecting that each and every story of Mormon conversions be one of objective reality. If many troubled souls simply find something as vague as an inner peace after meeting so many nice people in Mormonism, you guys are actually doing your job right. But is there any real evidence of truth, or just nice feelings?


398 posted on 10/12/2007 5:40:43 AM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus

“So, I’m not expecting that each and every story of Mormon conversions be one of objective reality. If many troubled souls simply find something as vague as an inner peace after meeting so many nice people in Mormonism, you guys are actually doing your job right. But is there any real evidence of truth, or just nice feelings?”

I’m really not clear on what kind of evidence you are referring to, or evidence about what. Not everything that is true has physical evidence to support it. I would point to the Book of Mormon being true as evidence that Joseph was a true prophet of God, but the evidence that the BoM is the word of God won’t come scientifically any more than the evidence that Jesus is the Christ does.

When it comes to things religious, in most cases the evidence is the existence of witnesses who testify of the truth, whose testimonies are confirmed they Holy Ghost to the hearts of those humbly seeking the truth, and whose lives (and often their deaths) reflect the truth of their testimonies.

Even if every aspect of Nephite civilization was absolutely proven by archeology, it does nothing to prove that the religious teachings in the BoM are true, that those in there claiming to be prophets are in fact true prophet of God. If you want evidence for that, put the promise to the test and find out for yourself. God isn’t going to force anyone to accept it against their will.


411 posted on 10/12/2007 8:13:59 AM PDT by Grig
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