LDS defend the faith as Christian

The Salt Lake Tribune ^ | 10/07/07 | By Peggy Fletcher Stack

[Elsie]

As w/ the early saints, are we proud to do so, absolutely! We stand tall in our proclamation. We fear not what man has to say but rather respect what the Lord would have us testify to.

 

Ok...

 

 

 

 

  Proverbs 11:2
   When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom.

 

  Proverbs 16:18
   Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall.

 

  Romans 3:27
   Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith.

 

  Romans 4:2
   If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God.

 

  1 Corinthians 1:31
   Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."

[restornu]

Must have been sleep walking on the second delivery of boloney!:)

[Elsie]

In 1976, Mormon Prophet Spencer W. Kimball who was the LDS Church's twelfth president from 1973 to 1985 stated:

"We hope that you who teach in the various organizations, whether on the campuses or in our chapels, will always teach the orthodox truth. We warn you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not according to the scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught by some of the General Authorities of past generations. Such, for instance, is the Adam-God theory. We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine."

Hello!

The Temple Rites® are NOT part of your SCRIPTURES!

[greyfoxx39]

In other words, your belief that Joseph Smith was a scoundrel does not give you license to become a scoundrel yourself.

A new epithet from the ranks of the apologists. Looks like a personal attack to me.

[greyfoxx39]

Welllll...You wuz WARNED!

MormonDudette (I guess you shoulda listened!)

[Grig]

“Yet this sits at the tip of a rather lengthy list of other historical anomalies which, taken as a whole, point strongly to a human vs divine origin of Mormonism.”

Whatever you may personally think of such discoveries as I’ve pointed to, the fact remains that they exist and they increase the plausibility of there being a civilization such as described in the BoM.

Arguing that a lack of evidence indicates a human origin is logically invalid. The Nephite civilization existed for a very short time, only 1000 years (and it was nearly destroyed after the first 600 years by natural disasters) in a relatively small area, it went though a long, bloody and devastating war that destroyed their civilization and where the survivors descended into barbarism, then we have no record of what went on for more than 1000 years after that. It’s quite possible for such a civilization to be gone without sufficient evidence left to indicate it ever existed.

“Smith seems to be asserting higher knowledge, that creates a quandary. He is here not saying it is his understanding..”

There is no quandary from our POV. It doesn’t matter how emphatically someone claims something, it is not our doctrine unless accepted by the process I previously stated. If he wanted to assert it as doctrine received by revelation, he could have started that process himself but he did not do so.

“Was Joseph Smith your prophet? ...and to test him against what scripture tells us about discerning prophets.”

I absolutely believe Joseph Smith to be a true prophet of God. I’m well aware of what the Bible say of prophets, and I’m also well aware of how some try to twist that, and/or twist Joseph’s words to manufacture an accusation against him. You might find this article interesting: http://www.fairlds.org/Bible/Nature_of_Prophets_and_Prophecy.html

“transubstantiation for example, which I would suggest is not ‘misinterpretation’, but rather reliance on human tradition and wisdom vs what is presented in the Bible.”

They claim it is supported by scripture, and that is based on a min-interpretation of those verses.

“Let’s narrow the field by giving a definition of Christianity... I’ll present this as a statement of what followers of Christ throughout the ages have been in clear agreement on.”

Christianity is any religion that holds that Jesus is the Christ, the Savior and Son of God. The dictionary is pretty clear on that and doesn’t require the acceptance of the trinity or any other specific doctrine.

What you present as a list of things Christians have followed through the ages is only a list of what defines the current view of what is orthodox Christian theology. In the first century subordinationalism, not trinity, was orthodox. At the same time theosis was orthodox, but today we Mormons are called heretics for it. Authority came from living apostles, not from books that men can interpret this way or that based on their bias and traditions, likewise the ‘priesthood of all believers’ is not something found in original Christianity or the Bible.

[sevenbak]

Complete apples and oranges. You use Paul talking about the Jews and their disregard for Christ and His fulfillment of the law as a comparison for the LDS acceptance of Christ. You seem to be going down a road that leads to no relevance.

Here is the LDS view of Christ, His mission and it’s fulfillment. If you find any comparisons with the Zeal of the Jews here, then perhaps we can follow your line of reasoning... However, it’s contrary to your claim.

2 Nephi 2:
6 Wherefore, redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah; for he is full of grace and truth.
7 Behold, he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law, unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered.
8 Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh, and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise.
9 Wherefore, he is the firstfruits unto God, inasmuch as he shall make intercession for all the children of men; and they that believe in him shall be saved.
10 And because of the intercession for all, all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of him, to be judged of him according to the truth and holiness which is in him. Wherefore, the ends of the law which the Holy One hath given, unto the inflicting of the punishment which is affixed, which punishment that is affixed is in opposition to that of the happiness which is affixed, to answer the ends of the atonement—

[sevenbak]

Acts 15 is largely about circumcision, did you mean another reference?

[Reno232]

Obviously, most of those scriptures cited have nothing to do w/ the present discussion although they are great verses. The last one, 1 Corinthians 1:31 is very a propos however. I was very much boasting in the Lord. Thanks for noticing.

[MHGinTN]

"It’s quite possible for such a civilization to be gone without sufficient evidence left to indicate it ever existed." ... It is not possible for more than 100,000 men armed with iron swords and weapons of war to die on a battle field and there be no evidence of that battle in our age ... and much less possible for the claims of Hill Cumorah to be factual.

Caption:

Most Mormons will tell you that the angel that visited Joseph Smith three times on the night of Sept. 21, 1823 was named Moroni

This angel is the one who told Joseph Smith where the gold plates were buried and can be seen on top of most LDS temples. However, a close examination of early church history tells a different story. Some early Mormon sources which say that the angels name was actually Nephi are as follows:

The Times and Seasons Vol. III pp. 749, 753 ("He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi."). [In modern printings of the History of the Church, this has been changed to read "Moroni". It is interesting to note that Joseph Smith lived for two years after the name "Nephi" was printed in Times and Seasons and he never published a retraction.]

In August, 1842, the Millennial Star, printed in England, also published Joseph Smith's story stating that the angel's name was "Nephi" (see Millennial Star, vol. 3, p.53). On page 71 of the same volume we read that the “...message of the angel Nephi ... opened a new dispensation to man...."

In 1853, Joseph's mother, Lucy Mack Smith, also said the angel's name was Nephi (Biographical Sketches, p. 79).

The name was also published in the 1851 edition of the Pearl of Great Price as "Nephi." ("He called me by name and said unto me, that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi." (Pearl of Great Price, 1851 edition, page 41) The original handwritten manuscript of the PofGP dictated by Joseph Smith reveals that the name was originally written as "Nephi," but that someone at a later date has written the word "Moroni" above the line. All evidence indicates that this change was made after Joseph Smiths death.

Walter L. Whipple, in his thesis written at BYU, stated that Orson Pratt "published The Pearl of Great Price in 1878, and removed the name of Nephi from the text entirely and inserted the name Moroni in its place" ("Textual Changes in the Pearl of Great Price," typed copy, p.125).

Lastly, in 1888 J. C. Whitmer made this statement: "I have heard my grandmother (Mary M. Whitmer) say on several occasions that she was shown the plates of the Book of Mormon by an holy angel, whom she always called Brother Nephi". [It should be noted that a majority of the Book of Mormon is alleged to have been translated in the Whitmer home)

Why would the church feel the need to change Joseph Smiths story? The fact of the matter is that Moroni makes much more sense than Nephi because it was Moroni who was alleged to have buried the plates in the first place. But, let's not forget, Joseph Smith said the angel was named Nephi, NOT Moroni.

This is just another example of "The Brethren" changing Joseph Smith's story to make it more consistent and to remove (retroactively no less) all of the holes in Joseph's story.

************* Hill Cumorah?

Is the Hill Cumorah in New York the same one in the Book of Mormon?

Numerous leaders of the Mormon Church have taught since the earliest days of the Church that the Hill Cumorah in New York (the very same Hill Cumorah that Joseph Smith claimed he retrieved the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated from) is the very same Hill Cumorah which is mentioned in the Book of Mormon in Mormon 6:2 ( And I, Mormon, wrote an epistle unto the king of the Lamanites, and desired of him that he would grant unto us that we might gather together our people unto the land of  Cumorah, by a hill which was called Cumorah , and there we could give them battle. ) where (if you do the math) at least 230,000 men died in battle using steel weapons and armor.

However, this battle was about one tenth the size of the battle which took place at the same exact location approximately 1,000 years earlier when, according to Ether 15:2 "nearly two millions " of the Jaredites had their last great battle, also using steel weapons and armor.

Many self-proclaimed Book of Mormon scholars have told me over the years that "we don't really know the exact location of the Hill Cumorah spoken of in the Book of Mormon."  The obvious reason they want to deny that Joseph Smith's Hill Cumorah is the same one that is mentioned in the Book of Mormon is simple; there is literally not a trace of evidence to support the claim that 2,230,000 men died in battle using steel weapons and armor at the tiny hill now owned by the LDS Church in the State of New York called Cumorah.

However, you will see by the following quotes that many Mormon Church leaders have taught (and continue to teach) that over 2,230,000 men did indeed die at the Hill Cumorah in New York.

---

"The great and last battle, in which several hundred thousand Nephites perished was on the hill Cumorah, the same hill from which the plates were taken by Joseph Smith, the boy about whom I spoke to you the other evening." (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, Feb. 11, 1872 Journal of Discourses Vol. 14, pg. 331)

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"We visited the Hill Cumorah and were accorded the courtesy of going thereon by the wife of Mr. George Sampson, a brother of Admiral Wm. Sampson, who before his death owned the property.....We were delighted to be there. Looking over the surrounding country we remembered that two great races of people had wound up their existence in the vicinity, had fought their last fight, and that hundreds of thousands had been slain within sight of that hill."(Elder George Albert Smith, Conference Report, April 1906, p.56)

---

"These records were carried by Ether from the hill Ramah, afterwards called Cumorah, where the Jaredites were destroyed, as well as the Nephites." (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, May 18, 1873 Journal of Discourses Vol. 16, pg. 50

---

"Thirty-six years prior to this time his nation was destroyed in what we term the State of New York, around about a hill, called by that people the Hill of Cumorah, when many hundreds of thousands of the Nephites-men, women and children, fell, during the greatest battle that they had had with the Lamanites." (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, Aug. 25, 1878 Journal of Discourses Vol. 20, pg. 62)

---

"It will be, next Thursday night, 54 years since the Prophet Joseph Smith, then but a lad, was permitted by the angel of the Lord to take the gold plates of the Book of Mormon from the hill Cumorah, as it was called in ancient times, located in the State of New York. " (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, Sept. 18, 1881 Journal of Discourses Vol. 22, pg. 224)

---

"Finally, they became so utterly wicked, so fully ripened for destruction, that one branch of the nation, called the Nephites, gathered their entire people around the hill Cumorah, in the State of New York , in Ontario County; and the Lamanites, the opposite army, gathered by millions in the same region.  The two nations were four years in gathering their forces, during which no fighting took place; but at the end of that time, having marshalled all their hosts, the fighting commenced, the Lamanites coming upon the Nephites, and destroying all of them, except a very few, who had previously deserted over to the Lamanites." (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, April 6, 1874 Journal of Discourses Vol. 17, pg. 24)

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"The passages which I have quoted from the Book of Mormon and the more extended discussion of this subject by Elder B. H. Roberts which was published in The Deseret News of March 3, 1928, definitely establish the following facts: That the Hill Cumorah, and the Hill Ramah are identical; that it was around this hill that the armies of both the Jaredites and Nephites, fought their great last battles; that it was in this hill that Mormon deposited all of the sacred records which had been entrusted to his care by Ammaron, except the abridgment which he had made from the plates of Nephi, which were delivered into the hands of his' son, Moroni. We know positively that it was in this hill that Moroni deposited the abridgment made by his father, and his own abridgment of the record of the Jaredites, and that it was from this hill that Joseph Smith obtained possession of them. " (President Anthony W. Ivins, Conference Report, April 1928-Morning Session)

---

"Cumorah, the artificial hill of north America, is well calculated to stand in this generation, as a monument of marvelous works and wonders. Around that mount died millions of the Jaredites; yea, there ended one of the greatest nations of this earth. In that day, her inhabitants spread from sea to sea, and enjoyed national greatness and glory, nearly fifteen hundred years. -- That people forsook the Lord and died in wickedness. There, too, fell the Nephites, after they had forgotten the Lord that bought them. There slept the records of age after age, for hundreds of years, even until the time of the Lord." (The Latter-day Saints' Messenger and Advocate, Vol.2, No.2, p.221)

---

"The hill, which was known by one division of the ancient peoples as Cumorah, by another as Ramah, is situated near Palmyra in the State of New York ." (Apostle James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith , chapter 14)

---

"It is known that the Hill Cumorah where the Nephites were destroyed is the hill where the Jaredites were also destroyed.  This hill was known to the Jaredites as Rama. It was approximately near to the waters of Ripliancum, which the Book of Ether says, "by interpretation, is large, or to exceed all."  Mormon adds: "And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents round about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites."

"It must be conceded that this description fits perfectly the land of Cumorah in New York, as it has been known since the visitation of Moroni to the Prophet Joseph Smith, for the hill is in the proximity of the Great Lakes and also in the land of many rivers and fountains.  Moreover, the Prophet Joseph Smith himself is on record, definitely declaring the present hill called Cumorah to be the exact hill spoken of in the Book of Mormon.

"Further, the fact that all of his associates from the beginning down have spoken of it as the identical hill where Mormon and Moroni hid the records, must carry some weight. It is difficult for a reasonable person to believe that such men as Oliver Cowdery, Brigham Young, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, David Whitmer, and many others, could speak frequently of the Spot where the Prophet Joseph Smith obtained the plates as the Hill Cumorah, and not be corrected by the Prophet, if that were not the fact.  That they did speak of this hill in the days of the Prophet in this definite manner is an established record of history...." (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation , Vol.3, Bookcraft, 1956, p.232-43.)

---

"In the western part of the state of New York near Palmyra is a prominent hill known as the “hill Cumorah.” On July twenty-fifth of this year, as I stood on the crest of that hill admiring with awe the breathtaking panorama which stretched out before me on every hand, my mind reverted to the events which occurred in that vicinity some twenty-five centuries ago—events which brought to an end the great Jaredite nation .

[Editor's Note: About 20 short paragraphs later this speaker says the following]

"This second civilization to which I refer, the Nephites , flourished in America between 600 B.C. and A.D. 400. Their civilization came to an end for the same reason, at the same place, and in the same manner as did the Jaredites’" (Talk given by President Marion G. Romney in General Conference, October 4, 1975, Ensign Nov. 1975 pg. 35)

---

Apostle LeGrand Richards, in A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, chapter 7, also stated that Cumorah is in New York.

---

"Both the Nephite and Jaredite civilizations fought their final great wars of extinction at and near the Hill Cumorah (or Ramah as the Jaredites termed it), which hill is located between Palmyra and Manchester in the western part of the State of New York.

"Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and many of the early brethren, who were familiar with all the circumstances attending the coming forth of the Book of Mormon in this dispensation, have left us a pointed testimony as to the identity and location of Cumorah or Ramah."(Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, page 174-175, Bookcraft 1966)

---

"This time it will have to do with so important a matter as a war of extinction of two peoples, the Nephites and the Jaredites, on the self same battle site, with the same 'hill' marking the axis of military movements. By the Nephites this 'hill' was called the 'Hill Cumorah,' by the Jaredites the 'Hill Ramah'; it was that same 'hill,' in which the Nephite records were deposited by Mormon and Moroni, and from which Joseph Smith obtained the Book of Mormon, therefore the 'Mormon Hill,' of  today—since the coming forth of the Book of Mormon—near Palmyra, New York. (B.H. Roberts, Studies of the Book of Mormon, p.277)

---

"According to the Book of Mormon the Hill Cumorah of the Nephites--the Ramah of the Jaredites--must be regarded as a natural monument overlooking ancient and extensive battle fields. Around it early in the sixth century B.C., the Jaredites were destroyed. Here, also, a thousand years later, at the close of the fourth century A. D., the Nephites met with practical annihilation in a battle which, whether judged by the importance of the changes it wrought in the affairs of one of the world's continents, or the number slain,a ranks as one of the world's great battles. In view of these Book of Mormon facts one would naturally expect to find some evidences in this section of the country for such wonderful historical events. Here one has a right to expect the evidences of military fortifications; for, though a thousand years had elapsed between the destruction of the Nephites and the discovery of America by the Europeans, still some military monuments would doubtless survive that length of time." (B.H. Roberts, New Witnesses for God, Vol.3, Ch.34, p.67)

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"One of the most noted places in ancient American history was the land in which was situated the hill known to the Jaredites as Ramah and to the Nephites as Cumorah. In its vicinity two great races were exterminated; for it was there that the last battles were fought in the history of both peoples. There also the sacred records of the Nephites found their final resting place." (Elder George Reynolds, The Story of the Book of Mormon, Ch.69, p.325)

---

In 1990 the office of the First Presidency of the LDS Church stated that Cumorah is in New York:
Click here to see an image of the original letter

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Office of the First Presidency
Salt Lake City, Utah 84150

October 16, 1990

Bishop Darrel L. Brooks
Moore Ward
Oklahoma City Oklahoma South Stake
1000 Windemere
Moore, OK 73160

Dear Bishop Brooks:

    I have been asked to forward to you for acknowledgment and handling the enclosed copy of a letter to President Gordon B. Hinckley from Ronnie Sparks of your ward.  Brother Sparks inquired about the location of the Hill Cumorah mentioned in the Book of Mormon, where the last battle between the Nephites and Lamanites took place.

    The Church has long maintained, as attested to by references in the writings of General Authorities, that the Hill Cumorah in western New York state is the same as referenced in the Book of Mormon.

    The Brethren appreciate your assistance in responding to this inquiry, and asked that you convey to Brother Sparks their commendation for his gospel study.

Sincerely yours,
(signed)
F. Michael Watson
Secretary to the First Presidency

 

The facts seem to indicate that the official stance of the LDS Church is that the Hill Cumorah in New York is the site of  two major Book of Mormon battles which resulted in a combined body count of approximately 2,230,000 men, women and children.  Considering the archaeological gold mine this place must be it's too bad the Church doesn't at least turn the site over to National Geographic to start some digging and recovery work on what must be the burial site of millions of bones and tons of primitive early American weaponry. Yeah, right.

[colorcountry]

Subject:
The Death of Reason and Freedom

Date:
Aug 02, 2005

Author:
Enigma (Webmaster note: He is forced to be an active Mormon to maintain his marriage. This in unfortunately common.)

This story is also on the biography board of exmormon.org at Biography and Story Board

---

The Death of Reason and Freedom

ORIGINS

I was born into the church by parents whose lineage goes back to the founding of the LDS church. While they had their faults and mistakes, I was raised in a loving home with a very dedicated mother and father. They were wonderful examples to me of faith and endurance in trying circumstances and they tried every day to center their family’s life on the principles of the LDS Gospel.

I was born with a membrane disease in my lungs that nearly took my life at birth. My parents, extended family and several members of their local LDS congregation fasted and prayed many times on my behalf. My parents had already endured the devastation of losing their first-born son two days after his birth and they begged God not to take me. By virtue of the fact that I am writing this, I am there miracle baby. I was spared.

I went through all of the LDS Church rights of passage: Baptism at 8, priesthood at 12, president of my priesthood quorums, Seminary graduate/scripture mastery, mission at 19, marriage at 23 and two beautiful daughters by the age of 28. By all accounts I was on the highway to heaven. I was the good son with the ideal family, budding successful career, faithful service in church callings, and extensive understanding of the LDS gospel.

SHOCK

In January of 1995 I prepare to go through the temple for the first time in preparation for my mission. I have been taught through the years that I would learn all that was necessary to gain my salvation by going through the temple. I believe it to be the pinnacle of true worship. I have expectations of learning great things through the covenants and true order of prayer as these parts of the temple have been quietly intimated to me through the years by my parents and teachers.

My parents, grandparents, various uncles and aunts and myself meet at the Idaho Falls Idaho temple on a bright clear Saturday morning. I am a little nervous about the unknown but tremendously excited that I have reached this point in my life. I have one older sister who had made some serious mistakes and fallen away from the faith during her teen years. I am the first of my parents children to ‘make it’ to the temple and it is the healing balm for their souls to see their oldest son ‘staying the course’.

…Let me take you now through my first experience in the temple…

I get my temple clothing packet from the rental counter. The first two whispering questions surface to my conscious mind…

~What is this clothing for?

~Why are there moneychangers in the temple?

‘No matter’ I rationalize, I am hear to receive enlightenment and make covenants in the House of the Lord. I go with my father to a small room that serves as some kind of office. There, the temple president explains to me the sacred nature of the Garment and the need to wear it from this point on as a shield and a protection. I go through the Washing and Anointing and New Name ceremony without much concern. I accept these ordinances based on references in the bible regarding the washing and anointing of priests and the periodic assignment of new names to various biblical patriarchs in the Old Testament.

I proceeded to the waiting chapel to sit and meditate until the time of the next session. The time has arrived and the company of people assembled in the chapel is ushered into the creation room (the Idaho Falls Temple still has separate creation, garden, telestial and terrestrial rooms with the video and audio segments appropriate for those parts of the ceremony queued up in succession). I sit and wait.

~The company is seated…

~The lights grow dim…

~I sit silently in the darkness...

~This is the beginning of the end…

“You will be required to take upon yourselves sacred obligations, the violation of which will bring upon you the judgment of God. For God will not be mocked…”

~I feel fear in the darkness…

“If any of you wish to withdraw rather than receive these covenants of your own free will and choice, you may now make it know by raising your hand…”

~I look around in the darkness…

~I see my family silhouetted in the darkness…

~I feel fear in the darkness…

~I remain seated in the darkness…

I witness the creation and go into the garden room. The fruit is eaten. The fall has commenced…

“Take some fig leaves and make you aprons. Father will see your nakedness. Quick! Hide!”

“Brothers and Sisters put on your aprons.”

~I obey Satan…

I make my first covenant to obey God’s law and keep his commandments. I see the sisters bow their heads in submission to their husband’s. I am now ready to receive the first token of the Aaronic Priesthood with its accompanying name and sign.

~What is a token?

~What will I do with it?

I receive the first token: A secret handshake.

~A secret handshake…

I make the sign. I make the covenant. “I, Jesse, solemnly covenant before God, Angels, and these witnesses at this altar, that I will never reveal the first token of the Aaronic Priesthood with it’s accompanying name and sign”

~A secret combination…

All my life I have been taught from the Book of Mormon that secret signs, oaths and societies are from the devil. They are responsible for the destruction of civilizations and untold misery.

~I have joined a secret society…

~I am now a part of a secret combination…

~I feel fear…

Adam and Eve are cast out of the garden. I go into the telestial room.

~Satan is looking at me…

“I have a word to say concerning these people. If they do not walk up to every covenant that they make at these altars in this temple today, the will be in my power…”

~I feel terror…

Satan is cast out. I receive more tokens and signs. I put on strange clothing.

~I look at my father…

~His face a mask of concentration, staring resolutely ahead…

~I look at my mother…

~Her face devoid of emotion, following by rote…

I look around at all the other patrons following en masse. All dressed in strange ceremonial clothing. All bow their heads and say yes.

~I am in a cult…

~My mind whispers quietly: Please God no…

“Each of you bow your head and say yes.”

The company chants in unison: “YES”

~I am trapped…

~My mind screams: PLEASE DEAR GOD NO!

“EACH OF YOU BOW YOUR HEAD AND SAY YES.”

~I bow my head…

~I say “yes”…

“Raise both hands high above the head and while lowering the hands, repeating three times the words: O God, hear the words of my mouth”

~Everyone raises their hands…

~I raise my hands…

~Everyone repeats the chant…

~I repeat the chant…

The sound of many voices as one has a numbing effect…

~I am no longer an individual…

The True order of prayer is introduced. I feel relief. Finally a prayer to sooth my tortured mind. We gather in a circle around the altar. This sisters veil their faces. We do not pray. We make the signs of all the tokens of the priesthood. We each take the hand of the sister to our left in the patriarchal grip, raise our left arms to the square, and rest them on the shoulder of the person to our left.

~The officiator kneels…

~He begins to pray…

“Those in the circle will repeat the words of the prayer”

~We repeat the words of the officiator…

~Our words are a monotone chant…

~I am in a séance…

The sound of many voices as one has a numbing effect…

~I am no longer an individual…

~I feel my mind growing numb…

~I obey…

~I accept…

I pass through the veil after receiving the name of the second token of the Melchizedek Priesthood and go into the celestial room. Family congratulating me in hushed and reverent tones surrounds me. I sit for a moment to ponder.

~I am in a cult…

~Dear God what have I done?

~I am in shock…

~I have learned nothing…

I visit the temple repeatedly to gain more insight. None comes. I just accept it all as I have been taught to do and eventually the questions and doubts are silenced as the euphoria of accomplishment enshrouds me.

~I made it…

~I am one of the elite…

~This is the beginning of the end…

UNANSWERED QUESTIONS

After my first time through the temple, I learn from my mother that the ordinances have been changed recently. I simply nodd in acknowledgement of here statement, still too shocked to really respond to this revelation. Looking back, it was the perfect time to broach the subject, as I would not give it another thought for 10 years.

While on my mission I become aware of the existence of the Masonic order. I learn that Joseph Smith was a Mason. I learn of the similarities between the Masonic and Temple ceremonies. I learned that the temple endowment ceremony was introduced within two months of Joseph Smith’s induction into the Masonic Order. I learned that Joseph restored the endowment to its full purity from its ancient and corrupted Masonic origins. I am too indoctrinated as a missionary to even entertain a concern about the whole situation. I accept it all.

In my second year of college in 1999 a fellow student, upon learning that I was a Mormon confides in me that he used to be a Mormon but that he left because of the Book of Abraham. As I listen, he explaines to me that is was nothing more than a common Egyptian funerary text and that Joseph Smith’s translation was completely false. He tells me how everybody told him to ‘read this or read that’ writing written by various apologists to explain away the problem but none of it made any sense. He summarizes by saying that maybe he doesn’t have enough faith. He cannot reconcile the glaring inconsistency. My faith was unwavering. I feel pity for him.

By the end of 2004 I am a traditional believing married Mormon Father of two with a home in the northern Utah suburbs and a college degree completed. I am in the elder’s quorum presidency, working in my field of interest and life is good. Over the last few years, I have encountered and ‘resolved’ to my satisfaction a multitude of evidences and questions that would shed doubt upon the divinity and authenticity of the church. I am a stalwart member. In October of 2004 I get a job offer within my company for a position at the corporate headquarters in Atlanta, Georgia. My wife and I prayerfully consider and accept the offer. This is the first big move for us. My wife’s father works at the Bountiful Utah temple and he and his wife are preparing to serve a mission. We sell our home during the Christmas season and move to a small suburb north of Atlanta in January 2005. We are now on our own.

Shortly after our move to Georgia, my wife relates to me a phone conversation she had with her parents (they call usually once a week) in which her father mentioned in passing that the Initiatory ordinance had been changed. The comment passes and the conversation continues. All is well.

~All is not well…

~Deep inside my mind, a thought emerges…

COLLAPSE

~It keeps gnawing at me…

~I can’t seem to shake it…

~I’ll get over it…

I take the time one day to peruse the junk mail and run across an Oprah mail order book club list. I am browsing through the titles when I come across the title: Leaving the Saints: How I Lost the Mormons and Found My Faith by Martha Beck. I am intrigued and I read the brief description. I am always interested in why people leave the church if only to reinforce the various arguments I have constructed to bolster my faith. I do a search online at work and find that this is the daughter of Hugh Nibley, the most renowned church apologist. I read a few excerpts online…

~There is a crack in the foundation of my fortress of faith…

~The Book of Abraham is back…

~For reasons I know not, I cannot ignore it this time…

I begin to read. I read stories online about why people leave the LDS church. I read for two months. I collect their stories. I laugh with them, cry with them, I sympathize with them.

I am now in violation of question number six in the temple recommend interview: “Do you affiliate with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or do you sympathize with the precepts of any such group or individual?”

~I bow my head and say yes…

HOPE

~I begin to think…

~I begin to question…

~I begin to doubt…

~I begin to learn…

~I begin to awaken…

I spend every available break time at work reading on the Internet. I revisit all of my concerns with an objective point of view. The evidence is devastating. It has been here all along and I have refused to see it in the light of rational thought. I have forcefully refused to use the brain that God gave me for over 10 years. I drink from the fountains of knowledge like a man dying of thirst. I have never felt so liberated. I ask God if what I am doing is right. I feel an incredible sense of peace and love envelope me and I know in my heart and mind that what I am doing is right.

~I am an individual!

~I am alive!

~I am free!

I am… married to a devout Mormon woman and I have two daughters. I am… in the elder’s quorum presidency. I am… in a large Mormon family that, with only 2 exceptions, is all devout believers. I start to think again. We are on our own now. Family is thousands of miles away. I begin to hope. If I make the information passively available, my wife will listen to the voice of reason. I share my concern of the changing temple ordinances with her. She is shocked but tries to understand and agrees that I need to prayerfully study my concerns to get the answers that I am seeking. I bring ‘By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus’ by Charles Larson home to casually read.

I am reading more and more each day. Finding a special thrill in entertaining serious questions and using my reason and intellect along with inspiration to find the truth. I am learning to love absolute truth without loyalty to any organization. It has truly set me free. I can question anything! I can reach my own carefully thought out conclusions! No information is off limits! I can truly exercise my mind! It is incredibly intoxicating.

~I know the truth now…

~The Mormon Church is a man made institution…

~It has no claim to exclusive authority…

~I know…

~I am so happy…

By this time I have stopped paying tithing. I am getting a better handle on the family finances as a result. I am cultivating a more tolerant and loving worldview. I am less judgmental. I no longer view life through the confining prism of Mormonism.

~The freedom is intoxicating…

~I don’t tell my wife…

~This is my fatal mistake…

Thursday, July 28th, 2005: we come to an emotional confrontation that lasts until four o’clock in the morning. Because I now hold the church in suspect, my wife tells me that our marriage is based on a lie. She tells me that she wishes that our children had never been born. She tells me that she does not want her daughters raised in a home with an unbeliever.

~I read the writing on the wall…

TRAPPED

Friday, July 29th, 2005: I come home from work and my wife tells me she has come to some conclusions. We sit and talk. She has read ‘By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus’. She tells me that the truth is anti Mormon. She has thrown away the book. She tells me that Satan is tempting me with the facts. She tells me her testimony is unshakable. She tells me that in order for her to support me in my journey, I must do things her way. I must study only the scriptures and approved church scripture study guides alone and with her. She tells me I must put aside the facts and the truth for now. If at the end I still feel that the church is not true, she does not know what she will do. She may go into therapy. She may leave me. She may take my children away. She has called her parents and my parents while I am at work. They have all agreed to open their homes to her immediately if necessary. She tells me that my parents are prepared to come to my home this weekend and if necessary, she will go back with them. She has set an appointment with the bishop for Sunday morning.

~I am trapped…

DECISION

Saturday, July 30, 2005 – midnight: I cannot sleep. I go to the downstairs living room. I lay on the couch. I talk with God. I know the truth now. I love my family more than life itself. I would rather die than lose my children.

~Truth is irrelevant…

~Truth must be ignored once again…

~Facts must be buried once again…

~Freedom must be surrendered once again…

~I put on the blindfold…

~I put on the shackles…

~I am a voluntary prisoner in my own mind…

~I commit intellectual suicide tonight…

~I commit spiritual suicide tonight…

~I do this willingly, fully aware of the consequences, for the rest of my life…

~Freedom and reason are buried under the crushing weight of the foundation of my prison…

~I cry tonight…

~My soul dies tonight…

I go to the bishop Sunday morning. I say what is necessary. I will conform. I talk to my parents that night. I will conform. Because I love my family more than life itself I will conform. This is the legacy of Mormonism: conformity. I voluntarily submit myself to the horrifically comforting mental conditioning once again. I close forever the covers of enlightening literature. I will read and understand only what is approved.

~It is so easy…

~It is so simple…

~Yes…

~I understand…

~I bow my head and say yes…

~But…

~Buried in the recesses of my conscience, there will always be a bright spark of pure truth…

~Lingering…

~I know…

REMEMBER US…

To those of you on the outside reading this, I beg you, please do not forget us. Please remember the hundreds of thousands of unique, special, beautiful individuals that are currently serving life sentences in the prison of Mormonism. Please do not cease to pray; to whatever God you serve, for our deliverance. Some of us have no hope for redemption or liberation. For the greater good, we willingly sacrifice our souls upon the altar of conformity and orthodoxy. Our pain is real. Our sentence is absolute.

I will always hold out hope that one day, perhaps within my lifetime though not likely, that pure truth will prevail. I hope someday that the desire to understand the truth at all costs will override the desire to maintain tradition and conformity. Until that day I will try to find some grain of happiness somewhere, anywhere, in the spiritual abyss that I have willingly entered into.

~I bid farewell to progress…

~I bid farewell to truth…

~I bid farewell to reason…

~I bid farewell to freedom…

To those of you on the outside, I thank you. I thank you for your courage. I thank you for your wisdom and insight. I thank you for your compassion and understanding. I thank you for your stories. I thank you for showing me the truth and allowing me to bask in its warmth, even if for a small moment. I love you all. I hope that truth will ultimately prevail. I hope that you and I will live to see it.

Until that time, I go, quietly, shackled and blinded once more into the prison that awaits me. I bid you all farewell.

Remember me…

Remember us…

~I feel myself submerge once again into the group…

~I feel the darkness close around my mind…

~Strange…

~It feels so comfortable…

~So familiar…

~It doesn’t hurt very much anymore…

~I feel my identity slipping quietly away…

~I am no longer and individual…

~I bow my head and say yes…

http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon413.htm

[Elsie]

Acts 15 is largely about circumcision, did you mean another reference?

 

 

I guess you can't comprehend too well:

 

 

ACTS 15

 

 5.  Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."
 6.  The apostles and elders met to consider this question.
 7.  After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe.
 8.  God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.
 9.  He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.
 10.  Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?
 11.  No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."
 12.  The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the miraculous signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them.
 13.  When they finished, James spoke up: "Brothers, listen to me.
 14.  Simon  has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself.
 15.  The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
 16.  "`After this I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it,
 17.  that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things'
 18.  that have been known for ages.
 19.  "It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God.
 20.  Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.
 21.  For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."
 22.  Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, two men who were leaders among the brothers.
 23.  With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings.
 24.  We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said.
 25.  So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul--
 26.  men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 27.  Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing.
 28.  It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements:
 29.  You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.
 30.  The men were sent off and went down to Antioch, where they gathered the church together and delivered the letter.
 31.  The people read it and were glad for its encouraging message.

 

 

[Elsie]

Obviously, most of those scriptures cited have nothing to do w/ the present discussion although they are great verses.

Ha ha...

[Elsie]

You and your crummy ‘facts’ again...

—MormonDude(I’m gettin’ tired of this!)

[Elsie]

The facts seem to indicate that the official stance of the LDS Church is that the Hill Cumorah in New York is the site of two major Book of Mormon battles which resulted in a combined body count of approximately 2,230,000 men, women and children. Considering the archaeological gold mine this place must be it's too bad the Church doesn't at least turn the site over to National Geographic to start some digging and recovery work on what must be the burial site of millions of bones and tons of primitive early American weaponry. Yeah, right.

You heathen GENTILE!!

Don't you know this place is SACRED???

As much as a spoonful of dirt turned over in this hallowed spot would disturb the Spirits of the Departed so much that GOD Himself would cause fire and brimstone to fall upon the desecrators of this Holy Area!

--MormonDude(Glad MY bones aren't available for 'discovery'!)

[Elsie]

In January of 1995 I prepare to go through the temple for the first time in preparation for my mission. I have been taught through the years that I would learn all that was necessary to gain my salvation by going through the temple.

 

HMMmm...

 

 

 

 

All my life I have been taught from the Book of Mormon that secret signs, oaths and societies are from the devil.

 

HMMmm...

 

 

 

 

I love my family more than life itself. I would rather die than lose my children.

 

 Matthew 10:33-38

 33.  But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.
 34.  "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
 35.  For I have come to turn "`a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--
 36.  a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'
 37.  "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;
 38.  and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

 

 

---

---

 

 

John 21:15-17
  When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?"  

"Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I love you."  

Jesus said, "Feed my lambs." 

  Again Jesus said, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me?"  

He answered, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you."  

Jesus said, "Take care of my sheep." 

  The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?"  

Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?"

He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you."  

Jesus said, "Feed my sheep.

[colorcountry]

Thanks Elsie,

Your post was inspiring to me too. I am married to a Mormon and my family are all still LDS (except my children).

Thanks for reminding me.....Christ came to turn “`a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36. a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’

It has been a struggle.

[Elsie]

Alma 31:8-9

8 Now the Zoramites were adissenters from the Nephites; therefore they had had the word of God preached unto them.
9 But they had fallen into great errors, for they would not observe to keep the commandments of God, and his statutes, according to the law of Moses.

---

Looks like a lot of folks don't want to keep the 'law of Moses'.

[Elsie]

It has been a struggle.

You are in good company:

Hebrews 11:24-26

24. By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh's daughter.
25. He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a short time.
26. He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward.

[Missey_Lucy_Goosey]

However, I, personally, heard a still small voice tell me that Joseph Smith was a false prophet. This was after much prayer and study. MY testimony has been ridiculed by some of your friends, and I'm told I "didn't open my heart to the TRUTH". Imagine that!

If that is so, then you have your answer. Keep in mind that others have arrived at the opposite conclusion. God will judge.

God has already given the answer as to what beliefs define Biblical Christianity, and the standard by which Christians judge the genuine from the counterfeit in the Bible. Mormonism falls outside the pale of what God has said are genuine beliefs of His people.