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To: wmfights
We've already established that your dogma about the Assumption of Mary is based on one word, so the real strength of this position lies with your church fathers. How do you know they got it right?

No one will argue that certitude regarding the Assumption of Mary is not to be found in the patristic evidence. However, the subject was discussed by some of the Fathers, with various opinions. For example, Epiphanius (c. 377), questioning the possibilities of Mary's end, states: "...or she remained alive, since nothing is impossible with God and He can do whatever He desires, for her end no one knows" (Panarion, 78, 23). Augustine says Mary died, whereas Ambrose says he is not sure. The mere fact that the demise of Mary was even being discussed, which was not that case of any other New Testament person, shows that, among the Fathers, something was different about Mary.

John Damascene in the seventh century (Second Homily on the Dormition of Mary) seems to give clear evidence that Mary was assumed into heaven. John Damascene wrote during the era of Byzantine liturgy. Also during this time is St. Germanus of Constantinople (d. 733) and Modestus, bishop of Jerusalem (d. 634), who teach that Mary was assumed into heaven. Also, in the Sacramentary of Adrian I sent to Charlemagne, Mary's Assumption is affirmed. Prior to these witnesses, Theoteknos, Bishop of Livias in Palestine, from the sixth century, affirmed the Assumption of Mary in four separate instances.

Epiphanius' fourth century question about Mary's demise was still unanswered in the 20th century. As the centuries pass, there is a constant question, one that will not go away, of whether: (a) Mary died, and (b) Mary was assumed into heaven, with no dogmatic answer to either. The question did not cease up until 1950. At this time, it became a consensus that Mary was indeed assumed into heaven. Finally, in the late 1940's, Pius XII wrote to all the bishops of the world and asked them their opinion. 99% wrote back and said they believed that Mary was Assumed into Heaven. Here is a perfect example of how the Church's bishops, in union with the Pope, fulfill the statement in Matthew 18:18 concerning their prerogative to bind and loose.

1 Timothy 3:15 says "the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth," which is, of course, a timeless truth. The dogma is the arbitrary result of the Church's authority, not the result of the preponderance of the scriptural and patristic evidence. Since Scripture is not the final authority, the Church wins.

393 posted on 10/13/2007 2:28:32 PM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: NYer; wmfights
The mere fact that the demise of Mary was even being discussed, which was not that case of any other New Testament person, shows that, among the Fathers, something was different about Mary.

or different about them???

All these people you cite are father-come-latelies. What would they know about anything that happened 400 years earlier without documentation??? How is it this great assumption escaped the pens of all the apostles, first-second-third-fourth century writers??? Not one word from anyone until someone makes it up out of whole cloth in the 5th century adn then provides no evidence for it at all. It's a tall tale like all the others without even one witness or one shred of evidence???

How do people fall for this nonsense??? Oh ... I forgot ... Rome' imagination has spoken ... end of discussion.

394 posted on 10/13/2007 3:58:32 PM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: NYer; Dr. Eckleburg; wmfights

Among the fathers, something was different about Mary?

= = =

Welllll doh.

She was a MOTHER FIGURE of some status in that era—at least in the minds of many Christians, evidently—and contrary to Scripture . . .

And lot of muddle headed men—those who were Mamma’s boys and those who were berift of Mamma’s tender nurturing graces . . . can easily be psychologically quite obsessively addicted to the whoe mother archetypal schstick. And, it’s all the worse if said aging men have in the least treated their mothers less than ideally—and most naughty little boys have at one time or another.

Shoot, all kinds of fantastical nonsense evolved over Princess Diana . . . and probably Mother Angelica . . . . and Mother Theresa . . . Given a few centuries, claim might be made about THEIR bodily ascensions, sinless births and a whole raft of other nonsense.

Jurry-rigging a whole edifice of phoney doctrines is not really rocket science—it’s more sociology and political science and probably no small amount of demonology.


396 posted on 10/13/2007 8:29:44 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: NYer
Since Scripture is not the final authority, the Church wins.

And that's how the tiger got its stripes.

I do give you credit for stating that scripture really doesn't matter when it comes to RC doctrine. You'll probably deny it and give us the 3-legged stool story, but when push comes to shove, it's the scriptures that get shoved aside. Period. The end. Finis.


400 posted on 10/14/2007 5:34:20 PM PDT by DallasMike
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To: NYer; wmfights
"No one will argue that certitude regarding the Assumption of Mary is not to be found in the patristic evidence..."

It's a mean world. Another site which apparently uses quotes from you withought giving credit.

Quotes without attribution.

409 posted on 10/15/2007 10:26:21 AM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: NYer
Since Scripture is not the final authority, the Church wins.

It's rare on these threads to see someone so honest. In my Christian faith Scripture will always win.

412 posted on 10/15/2007 1:31:09 PM PDT by wmfights (LUKE 9:49-50 , MARK 9:38-41)
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