Now we know why Catholics believe that Mary remained a "perpetual virgin". You do remember what happened when people touched the first ark (2 Samuel 6:5-7, I Chron 13:9-10), don't you?
"All I have to ask you is one question - did you hurt my Mama?"
Posted on 10/08/2007 6:08:42 AM PDT by NYer
There's no viable, authentic, remotely significant hint of Jesus' Mother in Revelation. It doesn't matter how many clueless sorts from how many denominations pretend otherwise. It's sad that the metaphors in Revelation confuse so many. Though I have to believe that it is more evidence of God hiding things in plain sight and confusing deliberately those who refuse to PUT HIM AND HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON FIRST, FOREMOST AND ALONE IN SUPREME MAJESTY, GRACE, FORGIVENESS, GODLY COMFORT, POWER, . . .
28And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
I understand by this verse that she is blessed because "the Lord is with thee" and that she is to bear the Messiah. I see no inference in this verse (in any translation) of a state of sinlessness.
Another was in the apparition at Lourdes to Bernadette when Mary claimed she was the “immaculate Conception.”
Sorry, but this isn't Scripture.
Salvation, you have a tender spirit which is evident in most all of your posts, so understand that I am not attacking you, but what I see to be a false doctrine. If you will honestly look at the litany of such Marian doctrines, you will see that they are not supported by Scripture and are often at odds with what is written in God's Word. Which are we to believe?
This is supposed to be a POSITIVE affirmation in FAVOR of the QUEEN MOTHER SCHTICK? Where in Scripture is any HINT of such a QUEEN MOTHER being a GODLY, POSITIVE INFLUENCE. Perhaps I'm forgetting such an example.
The only ones I can imagine/faintly "remember?" are very negative ones.
v For the author to put forward such a NEGATIVE bit of evidence to SUPPORT a positive view of THE QUEEN OF HEAVEN is absolutely mind bogglingly PREPOSTEROUS.
I KI 15:3 Maachah, his mother, even her he removed from being queen because she had made an idol in a grove; and Asa destroyed her idol and burned it by the brook Kidron.
From Jer 7:18 "Ashtoreth--an idol of the Philitines--probably identical with the "QUEEN OF HEAVEN" . . . has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to reccommend the QUEEN OF HEAVEN to truly God fearing, God loving people.
NAVE'S TOPICAL INDEX EXAMPLE OF SUPERSTITION ON THE PART OF THE ISRAELIS:
The Jews attributed their calamities to having ceased offering sacrifices to the QUEEN OF HEAVEN. Jer 44:17-19
It continues to boggle my mind that anyone would grasp so VAINLY at the SMELL of straws to support ANY NOTION of a POSITIVE QUEEN OF HEAVEN when the whole counsel of quite a number of Scriptures is VERY FIERCELY HOSTILE to such a DEMONICALLY PAGAN idea.
JEREMIAH:
20-23Then Jeremiah spoke up, confronting the men and the women, all the people who had answered so insolently. He said, “The sacrifices that you and your parents, your kings, your government officials, and the common people of the land offered up in the cities of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem—don’t you think God noticed? He noticed, all right. And he got fed up. Finally, he couldn’t take your evil behavior and your disgusting acts any longer. Your land became a wasteland, a death valley, a horror story, a ghost town. And it continues to be just that. This doom has come upon you because you kept offering all those sacrifices, and you sinned against God! You refused to listen to him, wouldn’t live the way he directed, ignored the covenant conditions.”
JEREMIAH:
24-25Jeremiah kept going, but now zeroed in on the women: “Listen, all you who are from Judah and living in Egypt—please, listen to God’s Word. God-of-the-Angel-Armies, the God of Israel, says: ‘You women! You said it and then you did it. You said, “We’re going to keep the vows we made to sacrifice to the Queen of Heaven and pour out offerings to her, and nobody’s going to stop us!”’
25-27”Well, go ahead. Keep your vows. Do it up big. But also listen to what God has to say about it, all you who are from Judah but live in Egypt: ‘I swear by my great name, backed by everything I am—this is God speaking!—that never again shall my name be used in vows, such as “As sure as the Master, God, lives!” by anyone in the whole country of Egypt. I’ve targeted each one of you for doom. The good is gone for good.
27-28”’All the Judeans in Egypt will die off by massacre or starvation until they’re wiped out. The few who get out of Egypt alive and back to Judah will be very few, hardly worth counting. Then that ragtag bunch that left Judah to live in Egypt will know who had the last word.
AMEN!
This thread is just that -- preposterous. For men to make a queen of Mary is obscene. We fought a revolution against the very idea of a monarchy, yet men are trying to bring it back and indenture themselves to a queen Mary and a king pope!?!
God forbid.
Catholics underestimate how much articles like this are like nails on a blackboard to Protestants who view this elevation of Mary as outright idolatry, worshiping the creature instead of the Creator.
There's no difference between falling down in front of a statue of Mary than there is falling down in front of Isis.
If it is not Jesus Christ men kneel to, then it is pagan.
But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you." -- 1 Peter 1:24-25"For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
Ha! Nowhere in Scripture is Mary spoken of as anything other than a simple, devout young woman whom God chose to give birth to His Son.
This essay is gibberish and one day Hahn will have to answer for encouraging people to take their eyes off of Jesus Christ.
Martial arts? Beer drinking? Chess?
The title of this thread is so off base that the thread isn’t getting any action at all. Even the Marians have nothing to work with from the material posted and are rather silent.
Amazing... Nothing scriptural...You could switch Mary’s name for the Goddess Diana and it would make far more sense...
They’ve made a pagan Goddess out of the Mother of Jesus Christ...
We can’t have a Queen of Heaven...The only Queen of Heaven will be the Bride of the King...
They’re following this Scott Hahn like he is the Pied Piper...
Very good, I have to remember that one.
Dear fwdude,
The Bible you’re reading has been changed from the original.
Not by mistake either!
Luke 1:28 Uses the word “Kecharitomene” to describe Mary,s function,essence and being
The original Greek was kecharitomene, the perfect passive participle of charis, grace. St. Jerome translated it into Latin as gratia plena, “full of grace.” In Greek the perfect stem denotes a completed action with a permanent result. Kecharitomene means completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace. The Protestant Revised Standard Version translates Lk 1:28 as “highly favored daughter.” This is no mere difference of opinion but a conscious effort to distort St. Luke’s original Greek text. Had Mary been no more than “highly favored,” she would have been indistinguishable from Sarah the wife of Abraham, Anna the mother of Samuel, or Elizabeth the mother of John the Baptist, all of whom were long childless and “highly favored” because God acceded to their pleas to bear children. But neither Sarah nor Anna is described as kecharitomene in the Septuagint, a translation by Jewish scholars of the Hebrew Scriptures for Greek-speaking Jews in Egypt. Nor does Luke use it to describe Elizabeth. Kecharitomene in this usage is reserved for Mary of Nazareth.
Saint Luke does not use Mary as her name in Luke 1:28 He Changes it to “Kecharitomene” this is a new name , and we all know that name changes in Scripture are significant - Abram (Hebrew “father”) to Abraham (”father of multitudes), Jacob to Israel, Saul to Paul, Simon to Peter, etc.
This describes her very essence and being.
Mary, is named “kecharitomene” - because she is full of grace-full of perfection
The Blessed Mother fulfills many Biblical Old Testament Typological Prophecies, She is the New Eve. The Daughter of Zion,The perfect fulfillment of the Church and the Ark of the New Covenant.
God Created Ark Of Covenant WITHOUT STAIN
Here is a comparison of Old Testament Ark “verses” New Testament Mary who is the “Immaculate” Ark of the NEW COVENANT
A cloud of glory covered the Tabernacle and Ark (Exodus 40:34-35; Numbers 9:15) = Type is
“And the angel said to her: “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you’” (Luke 1:35)
Ark spent three months in the house of Obededom the Gittite (2 Samuel 6:11) = Type is
Mary spent three months in the house of Zechariah and Elizabeth (Luke 1:26, 40)
King David asked “How can the ark of the Lord come to me?” (2 Samuel 6:9) = Type is
Elizabeth asked Mary, “Why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” (Luke 1:43)
David Leaped and danced before the Lord when the Ark arrived in Jerusalem (2 Samuel 6:14 - 16) = Type is
John the Baptist leaped for joy in Elizabeth’s womb when Mary arrived (Luke 1:44)
Even the Early Christians saw this.
Some examples....
Athanasius of Alexandria (c. 296–373) was the main defender of the deity of Christ against the second-century heretics. He wrote: “O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O [Ark of the] Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides” (Homily of the Papyrus of Turin).
Gregory the Wonder Worker (c. 213–c. 270) wrote: “Let us chant the melody that has been taught us by the inspired harp of David, and say, ‘Arise, O Lord, into thy rest; thou, and the ark of thy sanctuary.’ For the Holy Virgin is in truth an ark, wrought with gold both within and without, that has received the whole treasury of the sanctuary” (Homily on the Annunciation to the Holy Virgin Mary).
Mary is the New Eve
Old Testament Eve- Verses New Testament Mary
Created without original sin, Gen 2:22-25 = Created without original sin, Luke 1:28,42
There was a virgin, Gen 2:22-25 = There is a virgin, Luke 1:27-34
There was a tree, Gen 2:16-17 = There was a cross made from a tree, Matt 27:31-35
There was a fallen angel, Gen 3:1-13 = There was a loyal angel, Luke 1:26-38
A satanic serpent tempted her, Gen 3:4-6 = A satanic dragon threatened her, Rev 12:4-6,13-17
There was pride, Gen 3:4-7 = There was humility, Luke 1:38
There was disobedience, Gen 3:4-7 = There was obedience, Luke 1:38
There was a fall, Gen 3:16-20 = There was redemption, John 19:34
Death came through Eve, Gen 3:17-19 = Life Himself came through Mary, John 10:28
She was mentioned in Genesis 3:2-22 = She was mentioned in Genesis 3:15
Could not approach the tree of life Gen 3:24 = Approached the “Tree of Life”, John 19:25
An angel kept her out of Eden, Gen 3:24 = An angel protected her, Rev 12:7-9
Prophecy of the coming of Christ, Gen 3:15 = The Incarnation of Christ, Luke 2:7
Firstborn was a man child, Gen 4:1 = Firstborn was a man child, Luke 2:7, Rev 12:5
Firstborn became a sinner, Gen 4:1-8 = Firstborn was the Savior, Luke 2:34
The mother of all the living, Gen 3:20 = The spiritual mother of all the living, John 19:27
The Early Christians saw this very clear...
“He became man by the Virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin. For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God; and she replied, ‘Be it unto me according to thy word.’ And by her has He been born, to whom we have proved so many Scriptures refer, and by whom God destroys both the serpent and those angels and men who are like him; but works deliverance from death to those who repent of their wickedness and believe upon Him.” Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 100 (A.D. 155)
“In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, ‘Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.’ But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise ‘they were both naked, and were not ashamed,’ inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age, and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race. And on this account does the law term a woman betrothed to a man, the wife of him who had betrothed her, although she was as yet a virgin; thus indicating the back-reference from Mary to Eve, because what is joined together could not otherwise be put asunder than by inversion of the process by which these bonds of union had arisen; s so that the former ties be cancelled by the latter, that the latter may set the former again at liberty Wherefore also Luke, commencing the genealogy with the Lord, carried it back to Adam, indicating that it was He who regenerated them into the Gospel of life, and not they Him. And thus also it was that the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:22 (A.D. 180).
“For as Eve was seduced by the word of an angel to flee from God, having rebelled against His Word, so Mary by the word of an angel received the glad tidings that she would bear God by obeying his Word. The former was seduced to disobey God, but the latter was persuaded to obey God, so that the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. As the human race was subjected to death through [the act of] a virgin, so it was saved by a virgin.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:19,1 (A.D. 180).
Dear fwdude, You should realize that Mary is the greatest of all women, greater than Ruth, greater than Sarah, greater than EVE! Since Eve was created immaculate (without original sin), Mary was conceived immaculate. And, although Eve fell into sin by her own free will, Mary corresponded to God’s grace and remained sinless. She could not otherwise be greater than Eve. Thus, as the Fathers of the Church unanimously conclude, Mary is the New Eve who restores womanhood to God’s original intention and cooperates with the New Adam, her Son, for the Redemption of the world.
I wish you a Blessed day!
Bunk...There is no credible evidence that the Septuagint was written before 350 A.D...
And what were Jews doing in Egypt in 250 B.C...They were told to get out of Egypt long before that and get back to Israel...
Being in Egypt, they were out of the will of God...
The manuscripts which came out of Antioch, (The Majority Texts) where the Apostles were based, and where follower of Jesus were first called Christians, are the accurate texts...
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13722a.htm
http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/CEHEBBIB.TXT
I’m sure Kosta50 can shed light on this?
Time for mass
I wish you a blessed day!
There are many of us protestants who don’t view Catholics as “worshipping” Mary. It is merely reverence; just more than protestants pay.
NONSENSE.
It is an interesting question as to whether there would be more Episcopalians worshipping Pomp, Circumstance, Situation Ethics and Gay Marriage than RC's worshipping Mary in say a lareg congregation of 1,000 or more.
But RC's ARE human, too. And I absolutely assure you that a certain percentage worship Mary quite brazenly contrary to Scripture and God's priorities. Some may be misguided and ill-taught. Some may be carried away on all the Mary hoopla beyond reason. Some may be attachment-disorder-addicted to the more familiar and pseudo-tangible. For whatever reason(s), a certain percentage of RC's worship Mary whether it is 5% or 55% or 75%. ANY PERCENT IS TOO MUCH such whether it be Prottys or RC's or Jews worshipping a scroll of ink and paper.
And articles like this confirm the worship of Mary as quite kosher, reasonable, 'saint-ly' when it's the opposite, horribly, abjectly, overwhelmingly the OPPOSITE of anything good.
And what craziness pretending Mary is the new ARK! The long line of rationalizations and jury-rigged postulations, comparisons, pairings of Scriptural stuff pretending similarity when there is none is also horribly confused, illogical, mangling of Scripture, straining at gnats and swallowing camels . . . wholesale, lock, stock and barrel heretical dogma from beginning to end.
With Mary as the new ARK, where are the NEW TESTAMENT DOCUMENTED MIRACLES--SHOW ME ONE.
Where's the documented miracle of this new ARK:
1. Raising a dead mouse to new life out of her motherly compassion?
2. Halting a legion of Roman soldiers in their tracks from abusing Jews?
3. Calling fire down from Heaven to consume a cat that dared to gobble her pet bluebird of happiness?
4. Curing Joseph of halitosis or gas?
5. Walking on water to retrieve a hanky a satanic wind blew out of her hand?
6. Resurrecting a dead moth that dared to crash into her halo?
WHERE, OH WHERE ARE THE MARY MIRACLES IN SCRIPTURE?
THERE ARE NONE beyond the miracle of her pregnancy. NONE as in zero-zip. Nada. Meiyou dongxi.
The whole of the RC edifice would have us believe that God thoughtlessly neglected to include such miracles in Scripture. Balderdash.
EITHER Mary's follow-on role included NO miracles--even after Pentecost . . .
OR
God felt it IMPORTANT THAT THEY NOT be mentioned AT ALL.
So, which is it, RC's? Mary did NO miracles or God saw fit that they NOT be mentioned in Scripture AT ALL BECAUSE HE WANTED NO SUCH ATTENTION PAID TO MARY? There aren't a lot of plausible options. Which is it?
PRETENDING, as ya'll seem to do, that God didn't quite know what He was doing when He directed the writing of the New Testament is NOT REALLY a PLAUSIBLE option. Nor is it a very kosher, safe one when it comes to escaping His discipline, wrath on the matter, either.
No they don't.
Catholics venerate Mary. And other humans who led holy lives. So what?
I venerate George Washington, John Adams and Ronald Reagan. I venerate the veterans of the great wars. They have monuments (sacrilege!) to them.
That doesn’t mean I worship these people.
That’s equals someone who is not tarnished with sin. One of the biggest indicators in the Bible of the Immaculate Conception.
BALDERDASH.
So, you're saying that Mary was FULL OF GRACE IN CONTRAST TO St Paul after the Damascus road?
Or, IN CONTRAST TO John on the Isle of Patmos?
What brazen illogic. There is NO "EQUALS" logically, Scripturally, linguistically, theologically, historically, prophetically--JUST AIN'T THERE.
Fantasizing it there isn't remotely sound theology nor even a very sound construction on historical reality.
SCRIPTURE TEACHES ALL US MORTALS that the one who thinks he has no sin is greatly DECEIVED and the truth is not in him. I JOHN 1:8
According to the theological hogwash postulated by this and similar threads, Mary would have certainly "KNOWN" she was immaculately contrived. Therefore she'd have thought she had no sin. Therefore she'd have not had the truth in her.
THAT line of reasoning is MUCH MORE SOUND than the MARY = ARK nonsense above and CERTAINLY MORE REASONABLE than that FULL OF GRACE EQUALS immaculately contrived/conceived.
Observing someone overflowing in a BAPTIZED IN HOLY SPIRIT EXPERIENCE is awesome in many cases. THEY are, in those moments FULL OF GRACE. But still very human. And, as Billy Graham has wisely said--WE LEAK. We need daily refillings.
Pretending that Mary never leaked is utter UnScriptural balderdash.
Now we know why Catholics believe that Mary remained a "perpetual virgin". You do remember what happened when people touched the first ark (2 Samuel 6:5-7, I Chron 13:9-10), don't you?
"All I have to ask you is one question - did you hurt my Mama?"
Or inspired teachings.
Jesus gave care and custody of Mary to John, who just happens to be the longest living Apostle. If Mary was blessed with all the supernatural powers she is claimed to possess, I think it is safe to say John would have mentioned them.
Historically it's interesting that the forgery "The Protoevangelium of James" emerged after the forgery "Acts of Paul and Thecla". In the latter Thecla was given great status because of her virginity, being a devoted disciple and GOD's intervention to save her from men who attempt to burn her alive, or throw her to wild beasts. In the eastern church she was called "Apostle and protomartyr among women". Tertullian complained some Christians were using the example of Thecla to legitimate women's roles of teaching and baptizing in the church.
It was very convenient for the western church that a more submissive role for women was found in the forgery "The Protoevangelium of James".
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