Mormon ousted as an apostate

East Valley Tribune—Phoenix, AZ, MSNBC ^ | Sept 23, 2007 | Lawn Griffiths

[colorcountry]

Being excommunicated for apostasy by the Mormon church is one thing, but Lyndon Lamborn is livid that his stake president has ordered bishops in eight Mesa wards to take the rare step of announcing disciplinary action against him to church members today. "I thought if he could go public, so can I," said Lamborn, a lifelong member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who said his research into church history gave him "thousands of reasons the church can't be what it claims to be."

Stake President R. James Molina acknowledged Friday he intends to have Lamborn's excommunication announced to the wards at men's priesthood meetings and womens Relief Society gatherings, even with Lamborn now taking his case public. Molina, as well as officials at church headquarters in Salt Lake City, call such a public warning about an ousted member extremely rare. They say, however, church members must be protected from what discordant ex-followers may say to damage the church...................

[colorcountry]

We are all unclean Girl. Only the blood of Jesus Christ can wash us clean. Not a Bishop, not a rebaptism, not a judge....but only through grace and faith in Jesus Christ and that ALONE are we made clean.

Did you know that Pride is a horrible sin. When someone is filled with pride, they place themselves above God. When you think you can be good enough, repent enough or do enough to earn your way to the presence of God, you are in essence filling yourself with false pride. You will fail every time. Only Jesus is perfect, and only through Him are we made clean....and not by our own works SO NO MAN may boast.

Don’t boast, dear, quit trying so hard, and just be. - Accept the gift. Show it by faith. That is all Jesus asks in return for His sacrifice.

[tantiboh]

What amazes me is that we have taken Abraham, who the Lord loved, and who loved the Lord, and dragged his good name through the mud. We've realized that he was an adulterer, and therefore a sinner of the most base kind. We've besmirched him and his works.

All this in the name of discrediting Joseph Smith. Why? Because it's impossible to attack Smith as an adulterer due to his practice of polygamy and ignore Abraham's actions.

Well, so what if we destroy the credibility of one of the Bible's most prominent holy men? Smith has just got to go!

[tantiboh]

To do what you demand, we would have to rely on modern revelation. As you don’t accept that as valid, I’m limited to works that you will find acceptable.

If we were to expand the scope to include what I believe to be scripture, the doctrine would be most plain to comprehend. Alas, we Mormons are hobbled in this fashion.

Still, the fact remains that sanctioned polygamy demonstrably existed in the Old Testament. You object to that doctrine being revisited in modern times, and that’s fine; but it has been demonstrated that polygamy, in and of itself, is not immoral when administered under the Lord’s directives.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

We've realized that he was an adulterer, and therefore a sinner of the most base kind.

And yet, you hold up Abraham's life as a template for the act of adultery that Smith committed.

In other words, in the quote above you say Abraham was an adulterer.

LOGIC then follows that Smith was an adulterer, because you claim that both Abraham and Smith were given some magical command by God to commit adultery.

Never mind that you can't find God's quote.

And lastly, God would NEVER command anyone to SIN. That goes against His nature.

[colorcountry]

What were Abraham’s motivations in your eyes? He could have resisted Sarah’s entreaties to have a child by Hagar.

I don't know his motives. But I know from a thorough reading of the Bible, that God didn't tell him to do so.

Perhaps he wanted to help God along with the plan for him to have a son. Perhaps he reasoned (as Sarai did,) that she was too old. Perhaps Abraham jumped at the chance to sleep with the sweet young thing.

I do know that God can and did use the sins of Abraham and me to His good. That is a promise from the Bible...everything (even evil) is used for God's good purpose. I trust him in that promise. I put my faith in the divine providence of God Himself, in all his wisdom, love, justice and might. Abraham is God's servant and only God can judge him. Only God can judge you or me.

Thank God!

[Pan_Yans Wife]

You object to that doctrine being revisited in modern times, and that’s fine; but it has been demonstrated that polygamy, in and of itself, is not immoral when administered under the Lord’s directives.

You didn't demonstrate this, tantiboth. You didn't prove your point.

[tantiboh]

Your position is clear. You worship according to the dictates of your conscience; I will do the same.

My conscience demands that I recognize Smith as a prophet of God, because the Holy Spirit has told me that this is so.

If this is misguided, then the blessings and knowledge I have received in my life as a result are more than ample to give me just cause to embrace any such deception.

I am confident enough to stand face to face with God at the last day and account for this decision, whatever eternal consequences may result. If you can say the same thing, then God bless you.

[tantiboh]

Please realize, PYW, that 342 was made in the spirit of sarcasm. I thought that was plain. I’ve made it quite clear that I do not accept that premise. Modern revelation teaches me otherwise.

[tantiboh]

~”You didn’t demonstrate this, tantiboth. You didn’t prove your point.”~

Then you did not read the verses I cited in #327; and if you did, then you did not understand them.

[colorcountry]

tanti,

To us who are Christian, we understand that Abraham was credited with perfect righteousness because of his faith.

For that, his sins (whatever they were) were forgotten. And so it is with us. We do not stand in judgement of Father Abraham from whom our Savior came. We revere him as a great Prophet of God.

It seems YOU are the one who is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. You cannot judge our frame of mind upon your own. We do not believe that Abraham was perfect, nor David, nor Isaiah, nor Obediah...nor any of the other OT Prophets.

God speaks to us individually through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Many are capable of dreaming dreams and prophesying. Your single Prophet of Mormonism speaking on behalf of the Lord is another fiction set up by Joseph Smith to place himself in a mighty and powerful position. God allowed many people the stupidity of falling for it. He will lead many people away from it and save them.

[tantiboh]

Then let the truth prevail.

[colorcountry]

It will.

The truth is blessed. God is truth. God cannot lie. And neither can God command it.

Please think on this.

[Elyse]

If you were visited personally by God the Father, and Jesus Christ, would it have an impact on you?

"If you were visited personally by SOMETHINGs that CLAIMED to be God the Father (who has a body), and Jesus Christ, would you put them to some kind of test?"

My first thought was - yes, it would have an life altering impact, but it would have an even greater impact if it turned out that the persons that claimed to be God and Jesus Christ gave me prophesies to proclaim to the world, and then, it turned out that there were false prophesies contained in the words and new gospel that they revealed to me. It is not possible for God or His prophets or angels to give false prophesy.

[sevenbak]

No fudging facts. You are very quick to judge and claim deceit on my part. I made it clear that Abraham had 3 wives. They all bore him children and became part of the abrahamic covenant. Yes, only 2 were his wives at one time, but what difference does that make to this discussion? A plurality of wives is 2 or greater at once, is it not?

As for the rest, Sarai did no different than Rachael or Leah did just 2 generations later for Jacob (Israel). Perhaps their giving Bilhah and Zilpah respectively to Jacob was also against God's will? (that is now 4 wives from which sprang the 12 tribes of Israel)

[sevenbak]

It has nothing to do with the fact that Abraham sinned with Hagar. Technically speaking however, the Ten Commandments had not been issued at the time.

That doesn't make sense. You said before that it has everything to do with Abraham sinning. And if you think that the sin of adultery is only limited to the ten commandments and afterward, please explain Joseph and Potiphars wife. Joseph fled from before her so as to not "sin against God."and ended up in prison for years for it.

Further, as I just mentioned to JRochelle, to cast such aspersions upon Sarai is also to do the same to both Rachael and Leah, plural wives to Jacob, grandson of Abraham. Both of these women gave their handmaids to Jacob to wife, so as to concieve children that they could not have on their own. (Gen. 30: 1-12)

[sevenbak]

Uh... where is THIS found?

2 Samuel 12:7-8

Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul; 8 And I gave thee thy master’s house, and thy master’s wives into thy bosom

[sevenbak]

Sorry; not a wife but Sari's servant.

Sorry, YES a wife, and yes a wife BEFORE Abraham sired Ishmael.

Genesis 16:

3 And Sarai Abram’s wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife. 4 ¶ And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes.

[sevenbak]

He did it AGAIN!!

He didn't do anything "again". It is clear from Genesis 20:12 that Sarai was BOTH Abrams's sister and his wife, his Father had multiple wives and she was his half sister:

Gen. 20:12 And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.

[sevenbak]

BTW, before I continue, I should post this. At least it’s a frail attempt to get back to the subject at hand.

“Six Arkansas nuns excommunicated for heresy”

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/09/27/nuns.excommunicated.ap/index.html

[restornu]

"Golly gee, Restornu, there really are people who don’t use the Lords’s name in vain who AREN’T Mormon.

Believe it or not!

Notorious at changing the LDS words around, that is not what I said JRochelle!

"How many here go to movies and it never phrases you all the language or the F word or taking the Lord’s name in vain and are here wearing you pious hat!"

"For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope." ~ Romans 15:4