Mormon ousted as an apostate

East Valley Tribune—Phoenix, AZ, MSNBC ^ | Sept 23, 2007 | Lawn Griffiths

[colorcountry]

Being excommunicated for apostasy by the Mormon church is one thing, but Lyndon Lamborn is livid that his stake president has ordered bishops in eight Mesa wards to take the rare step of announcing disciplinary action against him to church members today. "I thought if he could go public, so can I," said Lamborn, a lifelong member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who said his research into church history gave him "thousands of reasons the church can't be what it claims to be."

Stake President R. James Molina acknowledged Friday he intends to have Lamborn's excommunication announced to the wards at men's priesthood meetings and womens Relief Society gatherings, even with Lamborn now taking his case public. Molina, as well as officials at church headquarters in Salt Lake City, call such a public warning about an ousted member extremely rare. They say, however, church members must be protected from what discordant ex-followers may say to damage the church...................

[JRochelle]

So there are actually Mormons who don’t know Joseph Smith was into (in all ways) other men’s wives?

How is that possible? Don’t they have bios of him?
With a computer that stuff is so easy to look up.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

There are none so blind as those who will not see.
— Jonathan Swift

[Osage Orange]

People leave the church for many reasons and when they do, they face a hostile community, broken families, destroyed marriages and even risk loss of employment. People do not leave the church lightly. When they leave, they feel they are doing the right thing for themselves, and feel they are making ethical decisions

Needs to be said again...........

And I will add that many, many have prayed, and received answers from the Holy Spirit....who told them the truth..and lead them away from Mormonism.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

In my walk with Christ, others have shared their testimony with me to bring my understanding to a deeper level. Each story on its own is precious to me, because it shows me that my friends have stood in my place with my questions... and God has shown them the answers. I accept their testimonies as truth and as an example of God using their love for Him to draw others in fellowship. This is a blessing.

So, conversely, I take seriously any other person’s story about their faith, or lack there of, very seriously. I need to connect with them on a human level so I can better understand my place in God’s design. Even someone’s doubts lead me to further study and find the truth. Anything can be used for good, in my walk.

When I learn that someone has walked away from their faith, I want to study it closer because I am human. I want to find the answers that eluded them; no matter where the path may lead. Truth is what I seek... in everything.

I believe the very nature of God and His relationship with us calls each of us to find the truth. This is a noble cause in every instance. And I especially commend those with patience who lead others to the answers and thus find this quest deepens both theirs and the seeker’s relationship with God.

[Utah Girl]

Excommunication is a way of branding someone as ‘sinful,’ untrustworthy, or dishonest.

So adultery or murder is not cause for excommunication from a church? Because they will be labeled as sinners? Hmmm. So you would have problems with the National Association of Evangelicals, an umbrella group representing more than 45,000 churches with 30 million members. Also, New Life Church, where Haggard was the pastor (he started the church in his basement.)

I Corinthians 5:4-5 says, "In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." The purpose of excommunication is to save the person from his uncleanness that is destroying his communion with God and others in the fellowship. Therefore, if he can still be saved, that person is not completely cut off from God. Bible Tools.org

And from Church discipline

Question: "What does the Bible say about church discipline / excommunication?"

Answer: Excommunication is the formal removal of an individual from church membership roles and the informal separation of company from that individual. Matthew 18:15-20 gives the procedure and authority for a church to do this. It instructs us that one individual (usually the offended party) is to go to the offending individual. If he/she does not repent, then two or three go to confirm the situation and the refusal to repent. If there is still no repentance, it is taken before the church. This process is never "desirable," just as a parent never delights in having to discipline his/her children. Often, though, it is necessary. The purpose is not to be mean spirited or to display a "holier than thou" attitude. Rather, it is to be done in love toward the individual, in obedience and honor to God, and in godly fear for the sake of others in the church.

The Bible gives an example of the necessity of excommunication in a local church, the church at the city of Corinth (1 Corinthians 5:1-13). In this passage, the apostle Paul also gives some purposes behind the biblical use of excommunication. One reason (not directly found in the passage) is for the sake of the testimony of Christ Jesus (and His church) before the unbelievers. When David had sinned with Bathsheba, one of the consequences of his sin that God mentions is that the name of the one true God will be blasphemed by God's enemies (2 Samuel 12:14). A second reason is that sin is like a cancer; if allowed to exist, it spreads to those nearby just as a little yeast leavens a whole loaf of bread (1 Corinthians 5:6-7). Also, Paul explains that Jesus saved us so that we might be set apart from sin, that we might be "unleavened" or free from that which decays spiritually (1 Corinthians 5:7-8). Christ's desire for His bride, the Church, is that she might be pure and undefiled (Ephesians 5:25-27). Excommunication is also for the long-term welfare of the one being disciplined by the church. Paul, in 1 Corinthians 5:5, states that excommunication is a way of delivering "such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." This means that excommunication can somehow involve God using Satan (or one of his demons) as a disciplinary tool to work in the sinner's life physically to bring about true repentance in his/her heart.

Sometimes the disciplinary action of the church is successful in bringing about godly sorrow and true repentance. When this occurs, the individual is able to be restored to fellowship. The individual involved in the 1 Corinthians 5 passage repented, and Paul encouraged the church to restore him to fellowship with the church (2 Corinthians 2:5-8). Unfortunately, the disciplinary action, even when done in love and in the correct manner, is not always successful in bringing about such restoration, but is still needed to accomplish the other good purposes mentioned above.

We have all likely witnessed the behavior of a child who has been allowed to do as he/she pleases with no or very little consistent discipline. It is not a pretty sight! Nor is such parenting loving for it dooms the child to a dismal future. Such behavior will keep the child from forming meaningful relationships and performing well in any kind of a setting, whether socially or in an occupation. In a like manner, discipline in the church setting, while neither enjoyable nor easy, is not only necessary, but loving as well. Moreover, it is commanded by God.

Matthew 18:15-17 says:

15 ¶ Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

[Utah Girl]

n her book “Godless: The Church of Liberalism” Pages 16-17 Ann Coulter writes “In the book Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith, Jon Krakauer wrotes of the Bush administration, “This, after all, is a country led by a born-again Christian.... who characterizes international relations as a biblical clash between forces of good and evil. The highest officer in the land, Attorney General John Ashcroft, is a dyed-in-the-wool follower of a fundamentalist Christian sect- The Pentecostal Assemblies of God of America... and subscribes to a vividly apocalyptic worldview that has much in common with key millenarian beliefs held by the Lafferty brothers and the residents of Colorado City”.

Exactly right. Not only does Jon Krakauer denounce the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, but he goes on to denounce all faiths and religions, because they can lead to murdering people who don't believe as they do (ie: The Crusades, the Inquisition, etc.) Funny thing, he doesn't mention Hitler trying to exterminate the Jewish race...

[Utah Girl]

Almost all of the people who have gone public about their excommunications have not been quite truthful about the reasons for their excommunication. Sonya Johnson said it was because she was a feminist for the ERA, that wasn’t the real reason. There have been a couple of others where adultery was the charge, but publicly they said it was a difference of opinion in doctrine.

[MHGinTN]

Would that you could apply this to the truth about Joseph Smith. But, even so, we are admonished to judge and keep the fellowship of believers from becoming just like the world. If we do not cleanse our midst, we are held accountable before the Lord! And we are certainly not doing the 'brother' any favor by allowing the continued degeneracy while in our fellowship. It is interesting that Paul teaches even this man who 'married' his own mother may be devoured by Satan yet saved in the Day of the Lord Jesus. Very Baptist, that! [Once saved always saved ...]

I Cor 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

[Utah Girl]

Most churches don’t fear criticism because they do not fear the truth. It appears that this guy learned some things about Mormonism that might cause other thinking individuals to question the truth of Mormonism.

Except that we know that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. It is taught in Church History when studying the Doctrine and Covenants section 132. I have even read (gasp) several lurid accounts of the polygamy in the early Church. Lamborn thinks he is so original, but everything that he said in the article, we know about. The problem he has is he chose not to go away quietly, but to openly drag others with him.

[colorcountry]

What sin did this man commit? Nowhere will you find a Christian Church that will excommunicate someone for telling the truth.

[colorcountry]

I will ask you then, how many of Joseph Smith’s polygamist wives did he have sexual intercourse with?

[colorcountry]

Sure everyone who is excommunicated is lying....we know, don’t we, that the heirarchy cannot be wrong (wink, wink)

[Pan_Yans Wife]

Adultery?

Which definition?

What about those that remarry after divorce? Are they committing adultery?

[tantiboh]

Thanks for that, CC. I learned some new things.

Best regards.

[tantiboh]

~”And I will add that many, many have prayed, and received answers from the Holy Spirit....who told them the truth..and lead them away from Mormonism.”~

If that is genuinely the case, then I wish them the best.

As it has not been my experience, I won’t be following them.

[tantiboh]

~”There have been a couple of others where adultery was the charge, but publicly they said it was a difference of opinion in doctrine.”~

Exactly right. You don’t get excommunicated for a difference of opinion. You -do- risk excommunication for adultery, actively working to tear down the Church, or serious crime such as murder, rape, etc.

Those who say that they were excommunicated for a difference of opinion are not telling the whole truth.

[tantiboh]

~”What sin did this man commit?”~

Who knows? Church authorities generally don’t share this information, unless there’s very good reason.

~”Nowhere will you find a Christian Church that will excommunicate someone for telling the truth.”~

And the LDS Church is no exception.

[Saundra Duffy]

“thousands of reasons the church can’t be what it claims to be.”

Then why on earth would he want to stay? Bye bye. No hard feelings. Maybe he can find a church more to his liking. There are thousands of them out there - one on every corner.

[Grig]

That’s sadly an expected part of human nature. They know they can give any story they want and no matter how false it won’t be contradicted by the church, so the motive is certainly there to make something up that makes them look good and makes the church look bad.

From my experience, it is a loud minority of ex’ed members who would do that. Most of the one’s I’ve known will admit their actions forced the church to ex them and hope to return some day.

In my very last area on my mission I was teaching a woman who was the wife of an excommunicated Bishop. He committed adultery with her and after he was ex’ed he divorced his wife and married his mistress. He really hoped his new wife would come to join the church and that after he came back they could be sealed. I was only there for one month so I don’t know how things went after I went home.

A young couple in my ward now got pregnant and were both ex’ed. They married and kept attending and everyone was rooting for them. That was a few years ago, both have been rebaptized and they are going to get to the temple as soon as they can to be sealed to each other and their little boy.

[Saundra Duffy]

“The public announcement of his excommunication will be toughest on his wife, Lamborn said. ‘There’s the embarrassment,’ he said. ‘Friends won’t know how to treat her. The awkwardness. It is going to be tougher on her than anybody.’”

Again, I wonder why he would continue to put his wife through this “awkward” situation. If he thinks the church of hoooey, why doesn’t he just quit going - making his wife feel uncomfortable - go to some other Church that is full of the truth that he is seeking. This is a non issue.