Posted on 09/16/2007 7:11:48 AM PDT by Ottofire
I've been reading Van Til's An Introduction To Systematic Theology. Van Til notes systematic theology seeks to offer an ordered presentation of what the Bible teaches about God. He says "the study of systematic theology will help men to preach theologically. It will help to make men proclaim the whole counsel of God. Many ministers never touch the greater part of the wealth of the revelation of God to man contained in Scripture. But systematics helps ministers to preach the whole counsel of God, and thus to make God central in their work."
Here was the point that I found most interesting: "It is but natural to expect that, if the church is strong because its ministry understands and preaches the whole counsel of God, then the church will be able to protect itself best against false teaching of every sort. Non-indoctrinated Christians will easily fall prey to the peddlers of Russellism, spiritualism and all of the other fifty-seven varieties of heresies with which our country abounds. One-text Christians simply have no weapons of defense against these people. They may be able to quote many Scripture texts which speak, for instance, of eternal punishment, but the Russellite will be able to quote texts which, by the sound of them and taken individually, seem to teach annihilation. The net result is, at best, a loss of spiritual power because of loss of conviction. Many times, such one-text Christians themselves fall prey to the seducers voice."
Of course, I had the converts to Roman Catholicism in mind, rather than Russellites. I wonder how many of these Catholic converts actually attended churches that proclaimed the whole council of God? A question I would ask is how many Catholic converts previously went to churches with strong systematic confessions of faith, like the Westminster Confession, and how often were they taught the confession, like in a Sunday School class, and how well did their minister cover all the doctrines in the confession of faith? I would expect some rather weak answers. Van Til states, "We have already indicated that the best apologetic defense will invariably be made by him who knows the system of truth of Scripture best." I would modify this a bit and make it a negative: "the best converts to false gospels will invariably be made by those who knows the system of truth of Scripture least."
“I think the Catholic Church & all Protestant denominations would be better served by working to pick up the fruit that’s on the ground than trying to pick off the low hanging fruit in each other’s trees.”
I like that.
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"Counsel" of God, surely.
Well said.
Then you really can't say 'most' since you don't know that it is most. You could say 'most of the personal stories on FR that I have seen indicate. . .'
Surely you are not suggesting that all commentary be confined to the enumerable.
No, I'm suggesting that when you used the word 'most' it only applied to your personal observation in a limited arena. In my limited arena, I've not known this to occur.
Uh, okay, but that has nothing to do with the question I asked.
I can certainly say never when I've never known it to occur.
You might want to learn how James White has treated his sister Patty Bonds after she converted as only one example.
I don't know who James white or Patty Bonds are.
Perhaps, but again, I've never know this to occur. To make the claim that it happens most of the time, one would need stats or would need to know all instances where someone converted to Catholicism. One can say "in the arena with which I am familiar, most. . ."
I also would be interested in getting the other side of the story. Is the 'convert' blowing things out of proportion? Perhaps the convert wasn't 'abandoned' because of the conversion but because he/she did something to damage the relationship with his/her former friends. Naturally, someone telling about their conversion to Catholicism isn't going to talk about any negative aspects of their behavior post conversion. That person may not even realize it if they've done something to turn off their former friends.
I had a friend who was Luthern who began attending a Baptist church. She became adamantly in favor of her new denomination, and the subsequent (rarer) contacts she had with her former friends ultimately resulted in her forcefully trying to convert us all to Baptist. I'm sure she thought she was doing the right thing, but as you can imagine, it caused quite a few problems in the friendships.
No, probably not as many as a Catholic person. I probably do know more who converted from Catholicism to something else. Either way, I've not witnessed people lose friends over it.
And, perhaps the Protestants in your area are less rabid.
That is a possibility.
If you recall the hostility which met Francis Beckwith on his blog when he announced his conversion, you will know what I am talking about. Can it really be so hard to imagine a new Catholic paying a social price for his faith when leading Protestant schools will fire Catholic Converts from their faculties without discussion? Consider Wheaton, Calvin, and Gordon Colleges for starters. I know of no Catholic college or university which has the same narrow and bigoted policy. Come on now, stop playing dumb. Can you say with a straight face that Catholic and Protestant converts are treated the same by the churches the leave?
Ditto for Scott Hahn, Marcus Grodi, Bill Bales, and Steve Wood.
I had no idea Gordon-Conwell was such an untrustworthy and incompetent institution. Are such diploma mills a commonplace thing in the evangelical world?
My wife attended a Bible study last year at one of the growing NT churches with three of her fairly close friends (who had previously joined) and the hard sell that was initiated was incredible.
When it became apparent over the next number of months that she was not going to convert, two of the friends disappeared completely and the other only emerges occasionally.
Jacero is pretty much right. Years of deep study of REAL Catholic doctrine (not the propaganda put forth by the different Protestant sects) was why "I" converted to the Catholic Church. Catholic doctrine stands up, logically, historically, AND scripturally. The Catholic Church is the ONE church that seeks to unite ALL truths, and does an excellent job in doing so.
I view Catholics as a large denomination, misguided on several issues, particularly regarding the nature of the papacy, and largely right on most issues. I have noticed in both the Presbyterian and the Catholic denominations that the converts from one to the other are the often the most rigid and dismissive in their reaction to their former denomination.
It goes both ways. Many people could very easily say that if you familiarize yourself with the stories of Protestant converts (they are plentiful on the net), you wil see that this is a very common theme...
It all depends on your frame of reference. If you are an RC, then you will seek out the stories of converts to RC and and dismiss in some way or other, those who leave the RCC. That is just human nature, the result of our fallen nature. It is a pride thing. Even more so when these stories have an emotional component to them. No matter what "side" you are on , you will surround yourself with stories and people who support your line of thinking.
Not just in spiritual matters, but most matter of life. Another biggie is politics. We surround ourselves with people of our own beliefs and the more emotional based we get, the more we surround ourselves with people who start all the mud-slinging, even mild slinging, as seen in this thread. It is the same kid's taunt - "my dad is bigger and stronger than your dad" mindset.
Instead, we all need to be seeking the face of God, we need to be abiding in Christ Jesus, to be taking every though captive unto His obedience. Every word, thought and deed.
Can you imagine how I was treated by the Catholic majority? I was constantly teased, told I wasn't a Christian, and was excluded from many parties, etc. (And this wasn't just from the kids, either...Where do you think the kids got these ideas from?) So you see, this type of thing can occur anywhere and by anyone. It's funny, for years I WANTED to become Catholic, just so I could be like everyone else. (Although looking back, I wonder if it wasn't because I too wanted to have a big 1st Communion party and get lots of presents...)
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