Systematic Theology and Catholic Converts

Alpha and Omega Ministries ^ | 09/16/2007 | James Swan

[Scotswife]

“I think the Catholic Church & all Protestant denominations would be better served by working to pick up the fruit that’s on the ground than trying to pick off the low hanging fruit in each other’s trees.”

I like that.

[narses]

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[B-Chan]

I wonder how many of these Catholic converts actually attended churches that proclaimed the whole council of God?

"Counsel" of God, surely.

[B-Chan]

Well said.

[jacero10]

Most who become Catholic are rejected by their former friends. Got any stats on that? I've never known of this to occur. Of course, you know full well that there is no way to gather such a statistic. However, if you familiarize yourself with the stories of Catholic converts (they are plentiful on the net) you will see that this is a very common theme, particularly for former Protestant clergy. Surely you are not suggesting that all commentary be confined to the enumerable. That would render most religious discussion illegitimate.

[DarkSavant]

A Catholic venturing to a Protestant church will quickly find a new set of zealous “friends.”

Oh yeah, even when you say you're just visiting.

[MEGoody]

Of course, you know full well that there is no way to gather such a statistic.

Then you really can't say 'most' since you don't know that it is most. You could say 'most of the personal stories on FR that I have seen indicate. . .'

Surely you are not suggesting that all commentary be confined to the enumerable.

No, I'm suggesting that when you used the word 'most' it only applied to your personal observation in a limited arena. In my limited arena, I've not known this to occur.

[MEGoody]

Better to be rejected by earthly friends than by God.

Uh, okay, but that has nothing to do with the question I asked.

[MEGoody]

Never say never.

I can certainly say never when I've never known it to occur.

You might want to learn how James White has treated his sister Patty Bonds after she converted as only one example.

I don't know who James white or Patty Bonds are.

[MEGoody]

Numerous converts who have given their testimony describe this happening.

Perhaps, but again, I've never know this to occur. To make the claim that it happens most of the time, one would need stats or would need to know all instances where someone converted to Catholicism. One can say "in the arena with which I am familiar, most. . ."

I also would be interested in getting the other side of the story. Is the 'convert' blowing things out of proportion? Perhaps the convert wasn't 'abandoned' because of the conversion but because he/she did something to damage the relationship with his/her former friends. Naturally, someone telling about their conversion to Catholicism isn't going to talk about any negative aspects of their behavior post conversion. That person may not even realize it if they've done something to turn off their former friends.

I had a friend who was Luthern who began attending a Baptist church. She became adamantly in favor of her new denomination, and the subsequent (rarer) contacts she had with her former friends ultimately resulted in her forcefully trying to convert us all to Baptist. I'm sure she thought she was doing the right thing, but as you can imagine, it caused quite a few problems in the friendships.

[jacero10]

No, I'm suggesting that when you used the word 'most' it only applied to your personal observation in a limited arena. In my limited arena, I've not known this to occur. I grew up in Virginia where Catholics were less than 3 percent. A convert to Catholicism in a small town would be ostracized. I have never known a person to become Catholic without losing some friends or estrangement from some relatives. As you are not Catholic, you likely dont know so many converts. And, perhaps the Protestants in your area are less rabid.

[MEGoody]

As you are not Catholic, you likely dont know so many converts.

No, probably not as many as a Catholic person. I probably do know more who converted from Catholicism to something else. Either way, I've not witnessed people lose friends over it.

And, perhaps the Protestants in your area are less rabid.

That is a possibility.

[jacero10]

If you recall the hostility which met Francis Beckwith on his blog when he announced his conversion, you will know what I am talking about. Can it really be so hard to imagine a new Catholic paying a social price for his faith when leading Protestant schools will fire Catholic Converts from their faculties without discussion? Consider Wheaton, Calvin, and Gordon Colleges for starters. I know of no Catholic college or university which has the same narrow and bigoted policy. Come on now, stop playing dumb. Can you say with a straight face that Catholic and Protestant converts are treated the same by the churches the leave?

[Campion]

If you think Gerry Matatics was so ignorant of orthodox Protestantism, maybe you should take it up with Gordon-Conwell. They educated him and graduated him for the Protestant pastorate.

Ditto for Scott Hahn, Marcus Grodi, Bill Bales, and Steve Wood.

I had no idea Gordon-Conwell was such an untrustworthy and incompetent institution. Are such diploma mills a commonplace thing in the evangelical world?

[MarkBsnr]

My wife attended a Bible study last year at one of the growing NT churches with three of her fairly close friends (who had previously joined) and the hard sell that was initiated was incredible.

When it became apparent over the next number of months that she was not going to convert, two of the friends disappeared completely and the other only emerges occasionally.

[Wonder Warthog]

"Anyone with any intelligence agrees with you. Everyone else is a sinner and so they don’t count. Mmmmmm-kay."

Jacero is pretty much right. Years of deep study of REAL Catholic doctrine (not the propaganda put forth by the different Protestant sects) was why "I" converted to the Catholic Church. Catholic doctrine stands up, logically, historically, AND scripturally. The Catholic Church is the ONE church that seeks to unite ALL truths, and does an excellent job in doing so.

[Greg F]

I know many highly educated preachers and elders in the Presbyterian church that switched from being Catholic.

I view Catholics as a large denomination, misguided on several issues, particularly regarding the nature of the papacy, and largely right on most issues. I have noticed in both the Presbyterian and the Catholic denominations that the converts from one to the other are the often the most rigid and dismissive in their reaction to their former denomination.

[lupie]

Most who become Catholic are rejected by their former friends. Got any stats on that? I've never known of this to occur. Of course, you know full well that there is no way to gather such a statistic. However, if you familiarize yourself with the stories of Catholic converts (they are plentiful on the net) you will see that this is a very common theme, particularly for former Protestant clergy. Surely you are not suggesting that all commentary be confined to the enumerable. That would render most religious discussion illegitimate.

It goes both ways. Many people could very easily say that if you familiarize yourself with the stories of Protestant converts (they are plentiful on the net), you wil see that this is a very common theme...

It all depends on your frame of reference. If you are an RC, then you will seek out the stories of converts to RC and and dismiss in some way or other, those who leave the RCC. That is just human nature, the result of our fallen nature. It is a pride thing. Even more so when these stories have an emotional component to them. No matter what "side" you are on , you will surround yourself with stories and people who support your line of thinking.

Not just in spiritual matters, but most matter of life. Another biggie is politics. We surround ourselves with people of our own beliefs and the more emotional based we get, the more we surround ourselves with people who start all the mud-slinging, even mild slinging, as seen in this thread. It is the same kid's taunt - "my dad is bigger and stronger than your dad" mindset.

Instead, we all need to be seeking the face of God, we need to be abiding in Christ Jesus, to be taking every though captive unto His obedience. Every word, thought and deed.

[Wallace T.]

Much of the South, especially the Upland South, was settled by Scots-Irish and Scottish immigrants who were decidedly on the Protestant side of the religious wars in the British Isles during the 17th and 18th Centuries. The same is true for border states like Kentucky, West Virginia, and Missouri, along with the southern one-third of Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio. They are the reverse image of the Irish Catholics, who are heavily concentrated in the Northeast and the Upper Midwest. The two populations of people from the fringes of the British Isles do not overlap too much in this country. In both cases, their religious identity has deep historical roots and conversion from a Protestant denomination to Catholicism and vice versa still carries a social penalty almost 500 years after Martin Luther nailed his 95 Theses to the door of the Wittenburg church.

[Flo Nightengale]

I can understand completely the social ostracism that can take place when a person is not a part of the dominant religion where they live. But in my case, I was in the minority section. I grew up in Metro Detroit, and honestly, until I was in the 4th or 5th grade, there were NO other Protestant students in my classes. The majority of people were 1st or 2nd-generation Italian and Polish immigrants, who were, of course, Catholic. (This was in the late 60s.) My parents were Methodists from rural Texas, and had moved to the area for better jobs. I remember vividly how the Catholic students were weekly taken by the PUBLIC school buses during school hours for Catechism class. They would be gone from 1 1/2 to 2 hours, while I would sit alone in class twiddling my thumbs (or whatever it is that little girls do. I know I wasn't getting taught at that time.) This practice ended about when I was in 5th grade, as more and more parents objected to the use of public property and funds to provide religious education.

Can you imagine how I was treated by the Catholic majority? I was constantly teased, told I wasn't a Christian, and was excluded from many parties, etc. (And this wasn't just from the kids, either...Where do you think the kids got these ideas from?) So you see, this type of thing can occur anywhere and by anyone. It's funny, for years I WANTED to become Catholic, just so I could be like everyone else. (Although looking back, I wonder if it wasn't because I too wanted to have a big 1st Communion party and get lots of presents...)