Posted on 08/29/2007 8:04:23 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
ROME, Aug 29, 2007 (AFP) - Pilgrims on the Vatican's fledgling airline were stunned to discover that holy water from Lourdes, in southwest France, cannot be taken on board for security reasons, media reports said Wednesday.
French security officers seized the liquid -- reputed to have miracle-giving qualities -- under a Europe-wide anti-terrorism rule that forbids more than 100 millilitres (3.5 British ounces) in each passenger's carry-on baggage.
One pilgrim was so distraught that he drank the holy water on the spot, rather than surrender it to the authorities, Italy's Il Corriere della Sera newspaper reported.
Holy water from Lourdes has a price. One French website, lourdes-water.com, offers a one-litre (35 British ounce) plastic bottle for 100 euros (135 dollars).
Lourdes, a major European centre for Christian pilgrimage, is the first destination for the new air service created under a five-year deal between Mistral Air and the Vatican's pilgrimage bureau.
Service is to be expanded in 2008 to other places sacred to Roman Catholics, including Fatima in Portugal, Santiago di Compostella in Spain and the Sanctuary of the Virgin of Guadalupe in Mexico.
I think we all know the type. They think they have knowledge and intelligence that we lack or we would believe the way they believe. They never consider that they could be wrong. They think that we are ignorant about Protestants and their myriad beliefs and that we have considered them and found them partial and not whole.
I think we all know the type. They think they have knowledge and intelligence that we lack or we would believe the way they believe. They never consider that they could be wrong. They think that we are ignorant about Protestants and their myriad beliefs and NOT that we have considered them and found them partial and not whole.
Here’s another creature of our Lord’s:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03696b.htm
“Chrism is used in the administration of the Sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Orders, in the consecration of churches, chalices, patens, altars, and altar-stones, and in the solemn blessing of bells and baptismal water. The head of the newly-baptized is anointed with chrism, the forehead of the person confirmed, the head and hands of a bishop at his consecration, and the hands of a priest at his ordination. So are the walls of churches, which are solemnly consecrated, anointed with the same holy oil, and the parts of the sacred vessels used in the Mass which come in contact with the Sacred Species, as the paten and chalice. If it be asked why chrism has been thus introduced into the functions of the church liturgy, a reason is found in its special fitness for this purpose by reason of its symbolical significance. For olive-oil, being of its own nature rich, diffusive, and abiding, is fitted to represent the copious outpouring of sacramental grace, while balsam, which gives forth most agreeable and fragrant odours, typifies the innate sweetness of Christian virtue. Oil also gives strength and suppleness to the limbs, while balsam preserves from corruption. Thus anointing with chrism aptly signifies that fulness of grace and spiritual strength by which we are enabled to resist the contagion of sin and prduce the sweet flowers of virtue. “For we are the good odour of Christ unto God” (II Cor., ii, 15).”
CHRISM: A combination of oil and sweet balsam or perfume that is mixed and consecrated by the bishop and used to anoint newly baptized people and newly ordained priests and bishops.Chrism is also used in the consecration of churches and altars.
The use of oils to anoint has a great place in the Scriptures:
“The gospels contain three other stories in which a woman anoints Jesus with perfume. Both Matthew and Mark begin their account of Jesus’ passion by recounting the story of a nameless woman who anoints Jesus’ head with a very costly perfume (Matthew 26:6-13; Mark 14:3-9). John also begins his passion account with a similar story—only in John’s version, the woman is Mary, Martha’s sister. For John, the anointing takes place in Martha and Mary’s home, and Mary anoints Jesus’ feet, not his head (John 12:1-8). Luke tells us that the host is a Pharisee named Simon, while Mark and Matthew call him “Simon the leper.””
Jesus is anointed at His burial.
There so many references to God’s creatures in the Bible and their use in blessing that ignore seems to be a bit willful. IMVHO.
Amen to that! LOL!
I find it odd that you are not willing to explain what you mean by bless. I find it odd that you yourself say that the biblical defintion and the RCC definition are different. I truly wanted to know what you mean by bless. You are the one that used the word. But it would seem that either you do not know, or you don’t think they are the same or whatever. Your evasions speak volumes.
I am not trying to play games. I am quite serious. I also know that there is nothing that I could say or do to change your thinking. In the end, it is the Lord Jesus Christ whom we are to exalt, and I am trying to do that here, yet you want to cast me out, essentially calling me a dog or a swine. Oh well. I have been called worse. It is also always very eye opening when people resort to name calling (with or without scripture). That says a lot to me about you.
In the end, water can’t make you happy, just as water can’t be made happy. It is not necessarily wrong to understand that the Lord God can and does use whatever He wishes to bring someone to a greater knowledge of Himself - which is the only true joy there is. But it is wrong to worship the created thing that He does use. The woman showed an unholy reverence to that vial of water. It did not exalt the name of Christ. It was wrong.
If your feather are ruffled because of that and you want to call me names, then that is sure sign that sin is having its way with you in one way or another. I will let you find the scriptural passages (and there are several) that teach us that truth. When that happens, we need to be on our knees asking Him to show us the evil way in us. And, if we are not being double-minded (James 1), He will do just that. For He is faithful and He will complete the work that He began in those who are known by His name.
A little boy who was extremely ill went to Lourdes. As he was being Blessed, he was heard to say this out loud.
"Lord if you do not make me better, I am going to tell your Mother."
BTW, the boy did recover.
“...yet you want to cast me out, essentially calling me a dog or a swine. Oh well. I have been called worse. It is also always very eye opening when people resort to name calling (with or without scripture). That says a lot to me about you.”
No one said that nor would anyone ever say that.
It doesn’t help your argument.
FYI - here is an intersting word study. Just in the New Testamen, here are the uses of the word bless, blessed, blessing. The study should reveal to us some interesting things.
Luke 6:28; Acts 3:26; Rom. 12:14; 1Co. 4:12; 10:16; 14:16; Heb. 6:14; Jam. 3:9; 1Pe. 3:9;Mat. 5:3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11; 11:6; 13:16; 14:19; 16:17; 21:9; 23:39; 24:46; 25:34; 26:26; Mark 6:41; 8:7; 10:16; 11:9, 10; 14:22, 61; Luke 1:42, 45, 48, 68; 2:28, 34; 6:20, 21, 22; 7:23; 9:16; 10:23; 11:27, 28; 12:37, 38, 43; 13:35; 14:14, 15; 19:38; 23:29; 24:30, 50, 51; John 12:13; 13:17; 20:29; Acts 3:25; 20:35; Rom. 1:25; 4:7, 8; 9:5; 2Co. 1:3; 11:31; Gal. 3:8, 9; Eph. 1:3; 1Ti. 1:11; 6:15; Tit. 2:13; Heb. 7:1, 6, 7; 11:21; Jam. 1:12, 25; 1Pe. 1:3; 3:14; 4:14; Rev. 1:3; 14:13; 16:15; 19:9; 20:6; 22:7, 14;Luke 1:64; 24:53; Rom. 4:6, 9; 15:29; 1Co. 10:16; 2Co. 1:11; 9:8; Gal. 3:14; Eph. 1:3; Heb. 6:7; 12:17; Jam. 3:10; 1Pe. 3:9; Rev. 5:12, 13; 7:12;
“”But it is wrong to worship the created thing that He does use. The woman showed an unholy reverence to that vial of water. It did not exalt the name of Christ. It was wrong.”
You used two words, Worship and Reverence to define your argument.
They are not the same thing. We worship God alone. Only God in the Trinity.
We reverence (respect) the flag, our mother, and apple pie. The woman was showing respect for a sacramental that you don’t believe is blessed by a priest who is blessed and consecrated from an unbroken line from the Lord, Jesus blessing and consecrating Apostles, namely Peter, to our time.
It is an unbroken line of the Lord’s blessing.
Your interpretations of your belief are predicated on your own particular prejudice.
I don’t share your interpretations. Yours, according to my own belief are wrong.
Have a nice day.
Well, did you read the scripture in tiki's post #38? It seems pretty obvious that he/she was calling me. I don't think the lady in the airport was the object. LOL
Don't get me wrong. I really don't care what tiki said or says about me. But please don't say they didn't say it when they did. Unless they would like to explain why they used that verse when I was questioning why the water is "holy" and how it got that way, especially that particular vial and they were not able or were not willing to give a simple definition of the word bless. A word they used to explain why it was "holy". Seems pretty straightforward to me. It didn't help their argument either. :)
“It seems pretty obvious that he/she was calling me.”
Nope. She didn’t call you names.
I reply to you again.
I think I’ll just relax and talk to Michael because I really think I need to at this point.
Late in the day:
I reply to you again.
I meant to write: I won’t reply to you again.
Holy water to the Vatican = coals to Newcastle.
You are the one who said that you know what the Catholic Church teaches. If you do then you don’t need me to tell you.
You are the one to take the verse as me referring to you as swine but it is the first part of the verse that I was alluding to, Do not give dogs what is holy. Does that not say that there are Holy things and that we should protect them if we have the ability?
Your assertions speak volumes. Once again, you said that you know what Catholics believe and I took you at your word. If you were telling the truth then you have no need of an explanation.
Yes, I could tell you about blessings but you already know and I would if I didn’t think that you just want me to tell you so that you could pick apart my belief by applying it within your own belief.
I’ve been on FR for a long time, I’m pretty sure that I know when I’m being baited and sometimes I’ll play along for a while.
Do you worship the Bible?
I'll take that; add Red Rose and sugar please, two lumps. :^)
So now you ADMIT you are calling me dog? LOL (and I guess you do not understand the parallelism in that verse)
I was not baiting you on the question of what you personally understand bless to mean. It wasn’t a trick question or a baiting one. I do not choose to get into the personal level that you seem to want to take this. There is no Godly reason. Perhaps some other time you would be willing to exalt His name and search His Word with me with me. But it doesn’t look like it at this point in time.
no, I don’t worship the bible. I worship only the God of the Bible. oops.. I just stooped to your level. Not again here.
If you are sure of your faith and in what you believe, if you are sure in Christ, then why do you feel the need to relax? Are you tense? Do you not know that when we are abiding in Christ Jesus, no matter what people may do or say, we have His complete peace? Are you that unsure of your doctrine? I reply to you again.
No problem. I too believe that we were past the point of having any decent discussion when it began to stoop to name calling. May you dwell richly in the Lord Jesus.
I actually put that verse in there to see how you would react. A reasoning person would have seen the part about giving to dogs what is holy, especially as that was what this thread was about. As I thought, you made it all about you.
Go back and read your own posts, you accused the woman of worshipping the water.
I wish I believed you.
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