Posted on 08/24/2007 9:45:54 AM PDT by NYer
no it isn’t...it is incomplete at best and misleading at worst...read the Catholic bible, compare it with what protestantism has left out.....and wonder why?????
no it isn’t...it is incomplete at best and misleading at worst...read the Catholic bible, compare it with what protestantism has left out.....and wonder why?????
You are operating under the false premise that because a religion has a recorded history (whether somewhat dubious), that it is the one true church...
When in fact, your's is the church that combined with the Pagan majority which had the military and political might to destroy most of the dissenters...
And that, makes your claim of what is the oldest is the bestest quite insignificant...
One of these days I'd like a protestant to show me where in the bible, or in the early Christian Church, it is justified and authorized to start other christian denominations outside the Catholic Church, established by Jesus Christ.
Open just about any page in the N.T...
You have the wrong Catholic church...There are two Catholic churches...There is the catholic church and then there is the Catholic Church which you belong to...The denominations belong to the catholic (universal) church...
In the catholic (universal) church, no one prays to statues, as in the scripture...No one bows to a pope, or kisses his feet, or ring, as in the scripture...No one prays to Mary or dead people, as in the scripture...
In the universal church, all Christians are Priests AND Saints and the ONLY priest and saints, as in the scripture...Christians pray directly to God, as in the scripture...And on and on and on...
The Catholic Church is built upon it's Pagan tradition with a little bit of scripture thrown in to justify itself as 'Christian'...
The universal (catholic) church is based on scripture only, which is the word of God...
The universal (catholic) church is Spiritual, as in Holy Spirit, as in a One on one personal relationship with Jesus Christ, as in the scripture...The Kingdom of God is 'within you', as in the scripture...
The Catholic Church is physical, with multi-million dollar churches and shrines, with pageantry, long, colorful flowing robes, a pyhsical kingdom, rituals, precious metals and jewels, a Jesus SUBSTITUTE on earth, unequaled devotion to the Queen of Heaven, traditionally superior to the word of God, and on and on and on...
We know your church history...We know the scriptures...We chose the scriptures, the word of God...
To a few of us folks it's more than a matter of faith...We KNOW Jesus told John to pick up a pen and WRITE...Just as we KNOW that Jesus confirmed to John what was written in John 3:16...
So when your church makes the claim that the scripture is 'infallable', we can see that if you represent your church, your church is lying...And if you don't represent the Catholic church, you need to get with it on this issue...
I wondered why...So I researched it...Now I am happy to claim the KJV IS the word of God in the English language...
> To a few of us folks it’s more than a matter of faith...We KNOW Jesus told John to pick up a pen and WRITE...Just as we KNOW that Jesus confirmed to John what was written in John 3:16...
No, you BELIEVE this to be true, as a matter of FAITH. Is that not the entire point of the doubting St Thomas passage? And isn’t that what Hebrews 11 is all about?
Faith is not the same as Fact. St Thomas sought Fact and was given Fact: he was able to poke his fingers into the nail-holes and his hand into Christ’s side. But Christ then gave a specific blessing to those who would not have this luxury.
> So when your church makes the claim that the scripture is ‘infallable’, we can see that if you represent your church, your church is lying...
I have suspended attending Church, at least for a while. That said, the Church I attended never claimed Infallibility for Holy Writ. It did, however, claim that it was the Holy and Inspired Word of God. Which is something subtly but importantly different.
> And if you don’t represent the Catholic church, you need to get with it on this issue...
I suggest instead that you “get with” the concept that the Catholic Church will always be able to argue their way around the “Facts” that you present: in precisely the same way that I did. You confuse Fact with Faith: they are different, and only the latter passes the St Thomas test.
And should they fail, they have the back-stop argument of the Holy Father being “Infallible ex-Cathedra” — a self-referential argument of much the same nature as using scripture to internally prove scripture.
Either position requires Faith and Obedience to implement. Both will lead down different logical paths. Neither are correct.
Interesting Post.
Nah, I was just being silly. Being silly is one of my bad habits which I intend to keep.
Opinion, FWIW: A lot of people in this conversation confuse assertion with argument, and thing the words “in fact” have the power to convey certitude to their opinions. But thanks for articulating your opinion.
And you believe it not to be true, as a matter of faith???
The book says it's true...I believe the book...And I don't mean I 'think' it's true...I know it's true...
But then you are in an interesting position...The Gospels are the only books that had multiple witnesses who recorded the events...But the apostles skipped town (all but John) during the crucifixion so their accounts of the event were obviously heresay...
Therefore, none of the scripture is relevant...Only the parts you like to accept...
Regardless, Jesus told John to WRITE scripture...The fact that you don't believe it bolsters the idea that your religion is not based on the scripture...
Or was that "Peace on Earth,Good Will to Men?"
And your religion was established under what authority when? After someone thinking they could be their own "god" was able to sit back, pick and chose from what they "think" Christ established and call it their own, and call it their "truth?"
When in fact, your's is the church that combined with the Pagan majority which had the military and political might to destroy most of the dissenters...
Those "dissenters" they fought against the heresies and lies that were perpetrated by those who called themselves "followers of Christ" when in fact, they were the liars.
And that, makes your claim of what is the oldest is the bestest quite insignificant...
And you presume to see no error in the liberal modernism, as what happened during the reformation? "New, updated, and progressive?" It took man 1500 years to finally "figure it out?" Okaaaay....
Open just about any page in the N.T... You have the wrong Catholic church...There are two Catholic churches...There is the catholic church and then there is the Catholic Church which you belong to...The denominations belong to the catholic (universal) church...
Again, and that's where in the bible?
Hmmm...in my bible (the original one, not the abbreviated, revamped KJV) , the Church is capatilized. That would be the one that Christ established (Matt 16:18-19, Matt 18: 17-18, 1 Tim 3:15). There is NO evidence of more than one "catholic" church. All others are false.
In the catholic (universal) church, no one prays to statues, as in the scripture...No one bows to a pope, or kisses his feet, or ring, as in the scripture...No one prays to Mary or dead people, as in the scripture... In the universal church, all Christians are Priests AND Saints and the ONLY priest and saints, as in the scripture...Christians pray directly to God, as in the scripture...And on and on and on...
Yawn. I don't know what you claim to do in your chuch, but the One True Holy and Apolstolic Church that Christ established does not pray to dead people, as you who falsely claim we do. Next.
The Catholic Church is built upon it's Pagan tradition with a little bit of scripture thrown in to justify itself as 'Christian'...
Is this your ignorant opinion? Again, it's easy for you to throw down lies and not back them up. The theology of the entire Church is built upon the unbloody Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, as the Jews once did in their temples (with real sacrifies). Jesus is the Lamb who laid down the New Law. That is what the Catholic Church believes, and that is what we follow.
(not lovey-dovey "I'm okay, you're okay" liberalism that the "modern" Churches spread...."present" day post concillar "Church" included).
The universal (catholic) church is based on scripture only, which is the word of God...
You forgot the part in the scripture about "holding fast to traditions" (I Cor 11:2, 2 Thess 2:15, 3:6),... and on and on and on....
The universal (catholic) church is Spiritual, as in Holy Spirit, as in a One on one personal relationship with Jesus Christ, as in the scripture...
Oh, I see, when the "spirit" takes you. Now I get it. Uh, where was that "personal relationship" part again in the bible? The "Holy Spirit" is not a force, is that what you really believe? (John 14:26, Acts 8:29, Romans 8:27, 1 Cor 2:11 and 12:11) would disagree with you if that is the case.
The Kingdom of God is 'within you', as in the scripture... The Catholic Church is physical, with multi-million dollar churches and shrines, with pageantry, long, colorful flowing robes, a pyhsical kingdom, rituals, precious metals and jewels,
"Thy Kingdom done, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven."
Okay, I give you that one. We could never imitate what we have here on Earth than what is in heaven, but we try to adore God any way we can, no matter how futile, complete with our unworthy prayers in all humility, however not empty hollowed out town halls (at least, some Catholics still do).
a Jesus SUBSTITUTE on earth, unequaled devotion to the Queen of Heaven, traditionally superior to the word of God, and on and on and on...We know your church history...We know the scriptures...We chose the scriptures, the word of God...
It is plainly obvious that you don't know what our (your) Church history is, and completly reject it's foundational teachings, based on what you know (or I should say, don't know). The Catholic Church has every sacrament established by Christ since the beginning, and has the only authority through the Apostles, to hand them down. Does your "church?" I doubt it, but feel free to correct me.
I will say this, there are many Catholics who do not know their Church history either. There has been, since it's beginning, heresies that have plagued it since, and it continues today. However, the Truth, as I think you and I will understand, never changes. Through The Holy Ghost, Christ promised his Church that the gates of hell will never prevail, no matter how much the enemy (both outside, and within) try.
God bless, and have a good Sunday.
BTTT!
“You are operating under the false premise that because a religion has a recorded history (whether somewhat dubious), that it is the one true church...”
Nope. Wrong. We operate under the proven assumption, backed by Scripture, that Jesus Christ established ONE Universal Church, that to govern His Church He appointed Apostles and that the Apostolic Succession has had Divine protection from errors of faith ever since.
Your lack of historical knowledge and your willingness to believe that the Paraclete FAILED for centuries to protect His Church belies your claims and calumnies AGAINST the True Church.
***no it isn’t...it is incomplete at best and misleading at worst...read the Catholic bible, compare it with what protestantism has left out.....and wonder why?????***
Most of the differences are merely hairsplitting. Even Jerome considered the removed books(what the protestants reffer to as the Apocrypha) to be edifying but not canonical.
Well, it's true that we think that worship should be beautiful, when possible, and allowing for the atrocious taste of some clerics.
But I hear about pastors in other churches. You ever price a Geneva Gown or Doctoral robes? Heck, have you priced a good suit lately?
And a good suit lasts how long? While a decent chasuble can last a century if it's cared for. And while it's worn, the priest tends to blend into the scenery. In fact that's part of the purpose of vestments, as they evolved. The individual personality of Father so-and-so gets suppressed. You'll never know if HE has good taste in his clothes, because he's wearing somebody else's when you see him. (And my Dominican homies just wear cheap white habits most of the time when they're "working".)
And when I was an Episcopal priest I was delighted that I could spend little money on cheap black suits (or black blue jeans) and NEVER had to choose a necktie and would still look decent when I was leading services -- and wearing the church's clothes as opposed to my ratty stuff. One of the things I don't like about the "lay state" is the clothes.
Also, I'm into textiles and textile art. It's one of the reasons I got into producing "gourmet" wool for fiber artists. And I guess as far back as Plato's Republic it's been a vexed question how much of our livelihood should be spent on beauty.
But speaking as a guy who knows textile artists, I'm as glad that various places of worship provide a living for those who manufacture and create things of beauty in textiles as I am glad that Bach made a living writing for choirs and for organs which would cost in round figures, a gazillion dollars in today's money.
14 Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus
doxa en uyistoiV qew kai epi ghV eirhnh en anqrwpoiV eudokia
Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus
doxa en uyistoiV qew kai epi ghV eirhnh en anqrwpoiV eudokia
Byzantine Majority
doxa en uyistoiV qew kai epi ghV eirhnh en anqrwpoiV eudokia
Alexandrian
doxa en uyistoiV qew kai epi ghV eirhnh en anqrwpoiV eudokias
Hort and Westcott
doxa en uyistoiV qew kai epi ghV eirhnh en anqrwpoiV eudokiaV
Latin Vulgate
2:14 gloria in altissimis Deo et in terra pax in hominibus bonae voluntatis
King James Version
2:14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.
American Standard Version
2:14 Glory to God in the highest, And on earth peace among men in whom he is well pleased.
Bible in Basic English
2:14 Glory to God in the highest, and on the earth peace among men with whom he is well pleased.
Darby’s English Translation
2:14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good pleasure in men.
Douay Rheims
2:14 Glory to God in the highest; and on earth peace to men of good will.
Noah Webster Bible
2:14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will towards men.
Weymouth New Testament
2:14 “Glory be to God in the highest Heavens, And on earth peace among men who please Him!”
World English Bible
2:14 “Glory to God in the highest, On earth peace, good will toward men.”
Young’s Literal Translation
2:14 `Glory in the highest to God, and upon earth peace, among men — good will.`
See also my post # 53.
14 Stephens 1550 Textus ReceptusIs it just me or what?
doxa en uyistoiV qew kai epi ghV eirhnh en anqrwpoiV eudokia
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