Posted on 08/17/2007 11:11:00 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
There is another aspect of God’s mechanisms to sanctify us other than simply reading Scripture. I concur that individual study of Scripture is important, ... homework, if you will, but His Plan and body contains far much more.
Those with the actual spiritual gift of pastor-teacher actually have spiritual life in them revealing or providing them a perception different than rationalism or bodily senses by which they may perceive how to teach their flock.
The spiritual gift of pastor-teacher is indeed a spiritual gift from God. It isn’t a soulish talent or skill acquired by academic study resulting in a soulish work. Quite the contrary, those who attempt to substitute their personal work for the work of the Holy Spirit, simply scar their thinking processes such that they are less likely to rest in faith through Christ and allow their spiritual perception to respond as they had been gifted. Instead, there becomes a tendency to fall onto our past scarred thinking as a crutch or substitute for a walk through faith with Him.
With this stated, I concur that many man made substitutes might exist, but I must also emphasize that simply reading Scripture alone void of the body of Christ also isn’t fully living per His Plan. It might include study from a pastor teacher, or via various electronic modes of communication, but there is significance in the communication also being inspired by the spiritual gifts of the pastor-teacher.
It is amazing how much our sins will still be manifest and not remain hidden. Within the body of Christ, even when intentionally hidden in physical and soulish senses, there frequently remains many spiritually gifted who perceive the hidden violation of His Will by others. This is a glaring weakness in the worldly perspective. For those who are in tune with Him, its an amazingly wonderful journey, regardless the circumstances in which we are placed. Thank You Lord.
And, you ignore all the Church of Christ members that tell you differently and you trust your own visit of two?
How interesting. Apparently you have a closed mind and do not want to hear what the Church of Christ is.
It has always been very interesting to me that when a Baptist church is mentioned, there is no need to deride it, but mention the Church of Christ and everyone jumps on them simply because they use the Bible as the source of their beliefs.
Makes you wonder why the automatic attacks on a simple church teaching from the Bible. What is there not to like?
Must be that they believe the Bible is the source of knowledge rather than man-made creeds. That then threatens the church hierarchies. Very interesting..........
I agree.
However, there is always the chance that the power-happy individual will say the Holy Spirit is leading them to ................... Many insane people honestly believe the voices they hear in their heads. There are many and will be many false prophets, teachers, leaders.
Which is why we have the Bible to verify the teaching stays true to the inspired Word of God.
Agreed, again with emphasis on being a believer whole in body, soul, and spirit, not in soul only.
BTW, there are probably far more ‘sane’ people who label those who discern with spiritual gifts as being ‘insane’, than insane people who fail to discern and simply react to physical conditions.
I agree in parts with hesitation.
I am not saying reading scripture alone is the answer. There, of course, is far more. The Holy Spirit is at work. When involved in a congregation we use our talents to form the whole.
Yes, those that teach and preach are given those talents. But, again, there are many false teachers and people with ulterior motives. We cannot just follow man’s teachings without checking the “truth” of what is being taught. Man can drift, can further his ego, his own goals. Which is why the elders are in a congregation (picked by the biblical criteria). These elders have sound basis of biblical knowledge and are there to oversee that what the preacher teaches is scriptural - if not, they are tasked to handle the situation.
Now elders are men also, but with several of them meeting the criteria of elders and picked as worthy men, you have a council of men “watching” the direction of the church.
Now, if the church drifts and the elders do not correct it, members will leave and find a church that is based on biblical teachings. The problem is in how long members will stay before they leave.
Again, I am not doubting your view at all, just pointing out that we cannot just trust in man because man is man.
We all see things in church we question and a lot of that is based on the fear that our church is following man’s wishes other than God’s wishes. We often get stuck on believing a traditional practice is scriptural when in reality it is just traditional. This is an ongoing problem.
I’ve noticed that our church changes the pattern of service weekly and I suspect it is to prevent us thinking that you have to have two hymns, sit down, pray, another hymn, then the sermon to be scriptural.
No, I have attended six in four states - Indiana, Iowa, Texas and South Dakota.
I have found extreme ignorance about the founding and the history of the CoC by the members that I have talked to and not one will accept the history as I have posted above.
The CoC churches that I have attended appear to prefer ignorance and have found their Biblical knowledge to be more directed along the paths that their individual pastors have directed them. 4 out of the 6 churches had members that told me that the only important books of the Bible were Luke and Acts and everything can be learned from them.
I am not attempting to deride CoC members. They appear to me to be most sincere and willing to learn the word of God. The power structure on the other hand, is most instructive of the individual churches.
That was that church and that preacher and his style.
Not everybody preaches in the style you prefer.
The churches I have been in, had very good preachers. I do not like the fear-mongering style of preaching that seemed to be more popular in my youth.
Seems the past generation used that. Finally they started preaching about God’s grace.
I have heard several COC preachers say that in their youth they use to feel that if they did not get in one last prayer for forgiveness, they were goners.
Yet, this generation teaches more of God’s gift of grace and the wonder of it. This opened up a whole different view of religion for me. You treat that gift with respect and honor and serve not from fear of loss of salvation but out of love.
Many people forget that Jesus and His disciples were Jews. They spoke Aramaic. Jesus said in Aramaic, you are "Kepha" and on this "Kepha" I will build my Church. In Aramaic, "kepha" means a massive stone, and "evna" means little pebble. Using 'Petros' to translate 'Kepha' into the Greek, was done simply to reflect the masculine noun of Peter.
Why would Christ, the Almighty, the Perfect One, come and establish a kingdom “that shall never be destroyed” (Daniel 2:44), and establish and put Peter as the head?
In 2 Sam. 7:16; Psalm 89:3-4; 1 Chron.17:12,14 - God promises to establish the Davidic kingdom forever on earth. Matt. 1:1 clearly establishes this tie of David to Jesus. Jesus is the new King of the new House of David, and the King will assign a chief steward to rule over the house while the King is in heaven. In Luke 1:32, the archangel Gabriel announces to Mary that her Son would be given "the throne of His father David." Reflectinb back on Ezek. 37:24-25, we learn that David shall be king over them forever and they will have one shepherd. Jer. 33:17 Jeremiah prophesies that David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the earthly House of Israel. Either this is a false prophecy, or David has a successor of representatives throughout history. Jesus is our King, and Peter is our earthly shepherd.
1. Christ is the Head of the Church. (Ephesians 5:23)
That is correct and Peter's successor is our earthly shepherd. Col. 1:18, Christ is the Head of the one body, the Church. He is not the Head of many bodies or many sects.
2. Peter denied the Christ.
As Jesus predicted. He is a fallible man. However, the Resurrected Christ asks Peter 3 times if he loves Him. Obviously, as God, He knows the answer to that question. In John 21:15-17, Jesus selects Peter to be the chief shepherd of the apostles when He says to Peter, "feed my lambs," "tend my sheep," "feed my sheep." Peter will shepherd the Church as Jesus’ representative. Luke 22:31-32 reminds us that Jesus also prays that Peter's faith may not fail and charges Peter to be the one to strengthen the other apostles - "Simon, satan demanded to have you (plural, referring to all the apostles) to sift you (plural) like wheat, but I prayed for you (singular) that your (singular) faith may not fail, and when you (singular) have turned again, strengthen your brethren. We see in Acts 1,2,3,4,5,8,15 that no one questions Peter's authority to speak for the Church, declare anathemas, and resolve doctrinal debates. Peter is the rock on which the Church is built who feeds Jesus’ sheep and whose faith will not fail.
3. Peter held, in error, the Old Law and tried to bind it on the Gentiles. (Galations 2:11-21)
In this verse, Paul does not oppose Peter's teaching, but his failure to live by it. Infallibility (teaching without error) does not mean impeccability (living without sinning). Peter was the one who taught infallibly on the Gentile's salvation in Acts 10,11. With this rebuke, Paul is really saying "Peter, you are our leader, you teach infallibly, and yet your conduct is inconsistent with these facts. You of all people!" The verse really underscores, and not diminishes, the importance of Peter's leadership in the Church.
5. Even more interestingly, in Acts 10, Peter is seen to have poor understanding of what the Lord wanted of him.
Can you be more specific?
Your assertion that Peter was the first Pope flies in the face of scripture and logic.
Matt. 16:18-19 - Blessed are “you” Simon, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to “you,” and I tell “you,” “you” are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church. I will give “you” the keys to the kingdom, and whatever “you” bind and loose on earth will be bound and loosed in heaven. Luke bolsters this in 6:48, when he says that the house (the Church) built upon the rock (Peter) cannot be shaken by floods (which represent the heresies, schisms, and scandals that the Church has faced over the last 2,000 years). Floods have occurred, but the Church still remains on its solid rock foundation.
Who do you know who has bought his way out of sin? The forgiveness of sin is a free gift from God given to the Apostles. In John 20:22, the Lord "breathes" on the apostles, and then gives them the power to forgive and retain sins. The only other moment in Scripture where God breathes on man is in Gen. 2:7, when the Lord "breathes" divine life into man. When this happens, a significant transformation takes place. In the very next passage, John 20:23, Jesus says, "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained." In order for the apostles to exercise this gift of forgiving sins, the penitents must orally confess their sins to them because the apostles are not mind readers. The text makes this very clear. Nowhere in Scripture is the gift of authority to forgive sins taken away from the apostles or their successors.
We use the different versions of the Bible. The King James is the most respected but I find it hard to understand. The New International is the one I like.
There are biblical scholars in the church that will point out the particular errors in the different translations. They check it by the greek original meaning of the words.
Should we err, it would be understood by God that we sought His Word to the best of our ability.
This is why we do not like to teach from man-made creeds and watch closely what authors and books are used in teaching.
Of course, drift happens in our churches too and many complain that the young are using books published by denominational authors and that although the error might be pointed out in class, the books will be used often without the errors pointed out.
You would be surprised at how much knowledge people have of the bible. I have been amazed in our church and in awe of the knowledge.
And, again, the Bible is the inspired Word of God given for knowlege, inspiration, etc. So, we would feel safer going to the Bible than in any other document discovered, or written for clarification.
Yet, Christ is the Head of the Church not Peter.
And we only pray to God, Jesus. We do not believe in praying to idols.
You have obviously never attended a Catholic Mass. You will hear more Scripture read each week at the Mass than in any non-Catholic Church. Someone is deliberately misleading you with false information.
Perhaps the individual church members that I have conversed with have been anomalies.
I have been underwhelmed with Bible understanding from most denominational representatives. Accusing Catholics of listening only to the Pope is often followed immediately by “my pastor says...” and without the authority of the Magisterium, Biblical interpretation is frequently wide of the mark.
Can you tell me, for instance, from last Sunday, what Bible verses were read in your service just so that we can compare?
No, I’m referring to something far greater than talent. How we may have been trained academically, if not performed through faith in Christ, will actually tend to scar our thinking.
I’m referring to a pastor teacher who is gifted in the spirit to teach. That means if he has a limited or very small congregation, say three believers in the room who are in fellowship with God through faith in Christ at the time of teaching, the pastor teacher actually perceives thoughts through faith in Christ which are per God’s plan to communicate to those believers.
He might make an allusion to a situation one of those believers will experience in the future, perhaps even 20 years future, but through faith in Christ, as that pastor teacher is teaching is is guided very much by the Holy Spirit in the teaching of the Word of God.
That particular lesson might go for many years in the believer receiving the Word, somewhat unnoticed or not understood in its significance, but as the believer continues to grow through faith in Christ, and remains in faith so the Holy SPirit further sanctifies him, later that believer will be in the right place at the right time to execute His plan.
It might be something very slight, it might be a minor idea he communicates to another, it might be a logistical task, but it likely will also involve that believer’s spiritual gifts, known or unbenown to him.
The first task we have is to love our Lord, our God through faith in Christ with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength (volition) in all things, so we might be sanctified by Him, and be in the right place at the right time to perform as He has planned in eternity past.
On multiple occasions, I may sit down to study topically an issue “out of the blue” which simply happens to flow from thinking while in fellowship with Christ. Within 24-48 hours, many of the sermons which happen to be broadcast throughout several states and the nation hit directly on the same topic. That isn’t chance. That is a consequence of Divine Providence, and remaining in fellowship with Him, so that as He speaks to us, in our thinking, we find ourselves in the right place at the right time to perform as He guides us.
Formats of sermons and worship services might provide organization or structure to the environment to communicate the Gospel, which is fine, but isn’t it interesting what this is actually describing.
The KOSMOS or ‘world’ from the Greek, is defined as an ‘ordering of the CHAOS’. Cosmic or worldly thinking is simply how man might attempt to make order out of disorder. That may be done through faith in Christ or out of fellowship, independently of God. When performed out of fellowship, it is a system of thinking in a ‘worldly’ system. When we remain in fellowship with God, through faith in Christ, we might still order things, but by His guidance.
God so loved the WORLD, that He gave his only begotten Son. He doesn’t love worldly thinking independent of Him, but He has no problem with ordering things through faith in Him.
The trick is to remain in fellowship with Him through faith in Christ. Let Him do the work.
The format of services isn’t necessarily holy, but in many cases is simply good manners, a mechanism to live within divinely established authority, the first such authority being the volition of each person. By respecting the volition of others we find ourselves frequently simply exhibiting what might be called ‘good manners’. They allow for orderly conduct and lessen distractions so that in a teaching environment, the student is not distracted from the message being communicated. Distractions though might come from any number of situations, including probably most of all our own past experience which has scarred our thinking, tending to distract us from remaining in fellowship with Him regardless the circumstances.
The point I make regarding the church, the body of believers, is that it is far more than a worldly orgnization. On the contrary it is an ordering of His believers in body, soul and spirit, not merely in body and soul. The spiritual dimension is very, very, very real and IMHO once discerned one of the most significant reasons we all find eternal life through faith in Him.
***I have heard several COC preachers say that in their youth they use to feel that if they did not get in one last prayer for forgiveness, they were goners.***
I know several that still feel that way, including a C of C preacher. There is absolutly NO assurance in their CofC or my English version of restorationists.
My mom on her death bed actually cried out in fear because she “haden’t done enough” to earn her salvation. Her preachers then told her she had done enough. Wait a minute! I thought, Who gave them the authority to decide if a person has done enough or not.
I have been out of “that” group since 1973, and had the shackles of legalism broken by talking to a “Grace” believer.
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Joh 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
How could you possible think Jesus is calling Peter a rock???...Peter is a stone...
*** but it is too bad he is not familiar with this site http://www.traces-of-the-kingdom.org/
clearing indicates that the church was active prior to “the restoration movement”***
Don’t rest on your laurels. In the early 1800’s there was a man who wrote a book proving that the BAPTIST church could trace it’s existance back to the time of Christ.
The author...ALEXANDER CAMPBELL.
Interesting point. Certain CoC branches pride themselves in having preachers that are unschooled in theology. I have met several.
I suspect that unless the Holy Spirit was trumpeting loudly in their ears, that their theological error is larger and more rapid than is otherwise possible.
***This is simply untrue. ***
Ok, in this small town there are three Campbellite churches, and one more not far away. They won’t meet together because of silly doctrinal differences and NONE OF THEM will join a city wide ministerial alliance to help people needing help.
Another interesting fact:
A very influential individual in the Stone-Campbell Restoration Movement and helped out significantly in the creation of the CoC was Sidney Rigdon, who became estranged from Campbell fils, and then moved over to the Mormons and, it is suspected, contributed more to the theology of the LDS than did Joseph Smith.
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