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To: sirchtruth

The Church was founded by Jesus, and is guided by Him. Indeed, He identifies Himself with the Church (Acts 9:4-5). It is His Mystical Body, and it cannot err in doctrine or moral teaching, in spite of the sins, failings and cowardice of its individual members.


60 posted on 07/31/2007 8:03:06 PM PDT by magisterium
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To: magisterium
The Church was founded by Jesus, and is guided by Him. Indeed, He identifies Himself with the Church (Acts 9:4-5). It is His Mystical Body, and it cannot err in doctrine or moral teaching, in spite of the sins, failings and cowardice of its individual members.

One does not follow from the other. There IS no "magisterium" which is the pure and true teaching of the apostles, and it is a fiction to assert this is so.

It is most amusing to speak to Roman Catholics who assert an apostolic tradition of truth preserved unsullied through the ages, and then read Augustin v. Pelagius and contrast that with the council of Trent. In the 5th century, the church condemned Pelagianism as a heresy and excommunicated its followers. What is truly amusing is to look at Trent, where the learned doctors simply pulled out pelagian doctrine, dusted it off, tweaked it just the tiniest bit, and then made it official Catholic teaching, while damning all to hell who rejected it. Now, with the advent of ecumenicalism, there is a movement within Catholocism to try and redefine the words of Trent to make the anathemas not mean what they mean (some of James Akins' works, especially). If the doctrine of the magisterium were true, you guys would not have defined Augustinianism (which is simply protoCalvinistic doctrine) as orthodoxy, then rejected it for semipelagianism a thousand years later. The only reason the leaders of the church could get away with it is the fact that catholics are about as historically and theologically illiterate as protestants

However, you guys have to either reject the doctrine of the infallibility of the Pope/church and admit with us that councils and popes have erred and do err, or you have to do incredible verbal gymnastics with Trent, or you have to do what most evangelical Catholics do and just pretend like Trent does not exist.

The language of the dogmatics and the canons of anathema speak with the same unified language when they assert that all Protestants are forever damned. You just can't read read Trent with a halfway open mind and come to another conclusion. I know you guys don't WANT it to say that, and you have lots of (VERY CAREFULLY worded) modern documents that try hard to be ecumenical, but the fact is that the church teaches that the dogmatics of trent are still in effect. Despite Akin's statements to the contrary, the ANATHEMAS of trent have never been revoked (especially not by the 1992 canon law..., if you want to see why, freepmail me).

I am not a "catholic hater." I actually believe that many of my catholic brethren are truly born again, even when they believe such horrid things as the perpetual sacrifice of the mass, mariolatry with its silly distinction between latria and hyperdulia, and baptismal regeneration. I just think that we should be honest and up front about things the way they are.

105 posted on 08/01/2007 8:29:06 AM PDT by DreamsofPolycarp (Americans used to roar like lions for liberty. Now they bleat like sheep for security)
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To: magisterium
The Church was founded by Jesus, and is guided by Him. Indeed, He identifies Himself with the Church (Acts 9:4-5).

Ok, but the church is directed by the Scripture and Holy Spirit.
It's not "Church" which directs.

154 posted on 08/02/2007 4:56:44 AM PDT by sirchtruth (No one has the RIGHT not to be offended...)
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