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To: FatherofFive

It’s very consistent. How do we describe God the Father as changing?

1. Any description of God the Father changing applies equally to Jesus Christ.

2. Jesus Christ posseses all qualities all the Father. (If you disagree then please describe a quality that he does not have which God the Father has). Jesus is a consistently divine being, always faithful, always true, and all other divine qualities. In fact Jesus Christ is the express image of God the Father in every way that is possible.

Therefore, God the Father has always been God, he has always been omniscient, divine, all powerful, etc.

No inconsistentcy. The only thing incongruent has been your presentation of your beliefs. A resurrected body, but it is not really a body? Huh? I guess Jesus ate a “sprititual” fish and honey comb.

I don’t think someone possessing such beliefs is fit for office or should be considered sane.


1,133 posted on 08/01/2007 3:15:51 PM PDT by nowandlater
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To: nowandlater; FatherofFive
How do we describe God the Father as changing? 1. Any description of God the Father changing applies equally to Jesus Christ.[NAL]

Not true at all. There's a HUGE difference between a man-become-god (the LDS god) and a God-become-man (the historic Christian Jesus).

Jesus Christ posseses all qualities all the Father. (If you disagree then please describe a quality that he does not have which God the Father has).

Character qualities, yes! Manifestation qualities, no. The Father is spirit, and must be worshipped in spirit (John 4)...the Book of Mormon & the Bible agree on this (BoM- Alma 18:24-28 & 22:9-11...God is SPIRIT). NOWHERE DOES IT SAY IN THE BOOK OF MORMON THAT THE FATHER EVER HAD A PHYSICAL HUMAN BODY! If that was at least within the range of being "the fulness of the everlasting gospel" (what D&C calls the BoM), it would have been mentioned if relevant or important. (It wasn't.)

Whereas Jesus took on a human body (doctrine of incarnation).

Therefore, God the Father has always been God, he has always been omniscient, divine, all powerful, etc.

Well, I'm glad you've come to this conclusion. But how many actual LDS, including the original one, actually believed this all of their/his lives/life?

To quote Joe Smith: "I will go back to the beginning before the world was, to show what kind of being God was. . . . God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens . . . it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and suppose that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible. Here then, is eternal life--to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priest to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, namely by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one..." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-47)

1,170 posted on 08/01/2007 7:05:16 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: nowandlater
Jesus Christ posseses all qualities all the Father. (If you disagree then please describe a quality that he does not have which God the Father has).

Well, let’s start with this one: God the Father, described as a spirit by Jesus, cannot be seen.

"And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live." Ex. 33:20

"Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the blight which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen." 1 Tim. 6:16

So God is spirit and can’t be seen. Jesus was human and was seen by many.

Therefore, God the Father has always been God, he has always been omniscient, divine, all powerful, etc.

OK, let’s stay with this point. This statement is consistent with the Moroni and Mormon verses I cited:

"I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity" (Moroni 8:18).

"For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today and forever, and in him there is no variableness, neither shadow of changing? And now, if ye have imagined up unto yourselves a god who doth vary, and in whom there is shadow of changing, then ye have imagined up unto yourselves a god who is not a God of miracles" (Mormon 9:9-10).

Changing from spirit God to mortal must be considered at least a shadow of changing, don’t you think?

In the Ostler piece, which I thought expressed your beliefs, he tries to reconcile the unchanging and changing nature of God by redefining God as “Godhead.” To quote – “Thus, when the scriptures say that "God is from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God," it means that the Godhead has always manifested all the essential properties of godhood (whatever they may be), but the individual divine persons may not always have possessed all the properties of godhood individually. In other words, there was a time when the Father took on himself mortality just as there was a time when the Son became mortal, but there was a Godhead before, during, and after that time.”

Since you don’t believe that – it is silly and a gross distortion of the clear words of scripture – how do you reconcile the BOM unchanging God the Father with a KFD changing God the Father?

1,213 posted on 08/02/2007 12:02:29 PM PDT by FatherofFive (Choose life!)
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