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To: Forest Keeper; kosta50; MarkBsnr; D-fendr; Kolokotronis; Alamo-Girl; HarleyD; blue-duncan

“Not so at all. Things most certainly change after prayer has occurred. You are right that we don’t think we change God’s mind, what with God being God and all, but since our prayers are ordained and a part of His will they are most certainly of value and do precipitate change.”

What change what value where, FK?

In Calvinist thinking, is creation distorted by sin? Can one of the elect, by his very presence somewhere, change creation around him to its created state? Did Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross have any effect on creation aside from people? My guess is that the answer is no, but I ask this sincerely.


9,826 posted on 10/25/2007 4:12:51 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis; kosta50; MarkBsnr; D-fendr; Alamo-Girl; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; blue-duncan; ...
FK: “Not so at all. Things most certainly change after prayer has occurred. ..."

What change what value where, FK?

God ordains what will happen, including all changes in course. He also ordains the prayer that precedes those things. Many times we might experience this as God responding to our prayers by making a new decision to change course, (and it was planned that way all along). That is God's will. We know this to be true since God specifically tells us to bring our prayer requests to Him, while at the same time telling us that He already knows what they are. That wouldn't seem to make sense, so the consideration is what He wants our experience to be (and of course what glory it brings to God).

In Calvinist thinking, is creation distorted by sin?

Yes, I certainly think so. One example would be the physical deterioration of our bodies. I don't think that would have happened, but for sin. However, I would not take it so far as to say, for example, things like natural disasters are a result of man's sin. I see natural disasters as being the work of God's hand, for His own reasons. For example, the Bible is clear that God directly causes earthquakes (1 Kings 19:11-12, Is. 29:6, Eze. 38:19, Matt. 27:54 and 28:2, plus Revelation.)

Can one of the elect, by his very presence somewhere, change creation around him to its created state?

I doubt it, but I may not be fully following you.

Did Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross have any effect on creation aside from people?

In the macro sense I would probably again doubt it, but if you gave me an example it might help. :) Jesus didn't come here to eliminate sin from the world, He came to pay for the sins of the elect. In the macro sense, I suppose I can't think of how creation is all that different now compared to the time before Jesus came.

9,946 posted on 10/27/2007 1:09:59 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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