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To: jo kus
For the fallen, Harley, not for those who place their trust in God. Clearly, God has justified the ungodly - even you, if you repent and accept Christ. Your theology ignores God's Word.

We may be talking about two different things. I'm talking about our works so let me see if I can clarify. Those who are fallen can do nothing to please God. God makes us into new creatures. We do good things because Christ works through us. It is His work-not ours. All good things come from the Father.

"And to one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness". Romans 4:5

Faith has to come to us from the Father. Once it comes to us then it is our faith that is reckoned as righteousness.
9,768 posted on 10/24/2007 10:07:02 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD; jo kus; kosta50; MarkBsnr
If God created someone for hell,then do calvinists believe that these hell bound people followed the “will of God”?

It seems to me you must have to think this, because they completed God’s purpose...and if they completed God’s purpose without a free will then how is that God does not own the sins these people commit?

Perhaps my pea brain misunderstands this,but I don’t see any love in God creating someone without any remote possibility for Salvation.

Basically, these people are demons in a human shell then!

9,770 posted on 10/24/2007 12:43:58 PM PDT by stfassisi ("Above all gifts that Christ gives his beloved is that of overcoming self"St Francis Assisi)
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To: HarleyD
We may be talking about two different things. I'm talking about our works so let me see if I can clarify. Those who are fallen can do nothing to please God. God makes us into new creatures. We do good things because Christ works through us. It is His work-not ours. All good things come from the Father.

OK, well, that helps somewhat, and I see that our position is closer. Actually, I have read a bit about Calvin, and it seemed that he believed in the infusion of righteousness in nearly a Catholic sense. I wonder if you got that, or if Calvinism today has moved away from that idea and taken on the Lutheran view that man is STILL evil after justification and righteousness is an external imputation only. If you believe the former, it would naturally follow that man CAN do good when in Christ.

I agree with the first part of your statement. However, I would say that BECAUSE God has made us new creatures, when He works through us, WE PARTAKE in that work that Christ does through us. It has value because and only because we are in Christ. But it MUST be our work, as well. Otherwise, there is no point in sanctification. God desires for us to be saved - which means more than a bus ticket in the future. It also includes becoming like Christ. Thus, when God moves our will and desires to please Him through works of faith, we work together and they are OUR works as well as His works.

Synergy, God and man working together, is a biblical concept. It only becomes possible when God takes the initiative.

Faith has to come to us from the Father. Once it comes to us then it is our faith that is reckoned as righteousness.

Brother, you know I believe that, as well. I note you say "it is our faith that is reckoned as righteousness". Perhaps we are finally speaking on the same wavelength!

Regards

9,780 posted on 10/24/2007 3:04:48 PM PDT by jo kus
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