[jo kus]

I wrote: Paul's primary purpose is to preach the Gospel. Paul then continues that he DID baptize people. As it turns out, he question his own memory.

You responded: That isn't what the text state.

Come on, Harley, I don't have time for these games..

"And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel" 1 Cor 1:16-17

That is not to say that baptism wasn't important in the early church. It just emphasized that it wasn't necessary to be baptized into the Church.

Dead wrong. The Christians talk about baptism and the eucharist over and over again. Paul is not claiming that baptism is not important. That is your theology imposing itself on the text again. While I agree that Paul is not desiring to create factions where people follow different leaders, I don't see that Paul says that "baptism is unimportant". As a matter of fact, I see the OPPOSITE. People consider baptism as entrance into the community, thus, they took pride in WHO baptized them, since it WAS important!

What b-d and I neglected to also include in addition to these "election" verses are the number of verses where God specifically stated "You did not choose me but I chose you" or "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:". There are verses after verses that says we are chosen of God. The term "you", "man" or "him" is not addressed to a community but it is personalized.

Chosen to the community, Harley. You have added nothing new. Of course God has predestined individuals to the Church WITHOUT considering their merits. Most Catholics hold to that (although Molinarism, an acceptable alternative, says that God foresaw an individual's merits in determining selection.)

My commment stands. There are no Scriptures that tell us that an individual has been predestined to eternal glory. That is a fantasy, the "wide path", wishful thinking for people who do not desire to "die to self". Naturally, when Jesus says we must die to ourselves to become His followers, He was telling us that those in the community must NOW BECOME REAL FOLLOWERS of Christ. Saying "Lord, Lord" isn't enough, Harley.

Therefore some people can saved but not elected.

The term "elect" means predestined into God's community on earth. However, God can certainly foreknow and provide for a pagan to be saved. God's Spirit will blow where He wills. The term you use "saved", to me in this context, means a pagan can repent of his sins and have the Spirit enter into Him to transform Him. While this is the exception to the rule, it is not beyond the realm of the Spirit's abilities.

I can only trust our Lord Jesus that He is bearing fruit in me according to the measure of faith He has given me. May any fruit that I do bear bring glory to the Father.

So that means that God doesn't love you??? The bible clearly tells us that He does.

We are not righteous.

We can be after our regeneration begins, Harley. You are stuck in the old creation, the old man. Our charecteristics and abilities CHANGE because God effects within us a NEW CREATION. A NEW MAN. Thus, we ARE capable of loving our neighbor and become righteous.

And naturally, you would be disagreeing with the many verses that call men righteous... This is not surprising, since I have found that Calvinists, even when approached with the clear text, will not listen to God's Word over their theology. Even when the Bible says that God and man work together - the Calvinist WILL NOT HAVE IT!

So much for the Sovereign God. It is an abstract idea in the head of a Calvinist, an idea that doesn't exist in reality.

Regards

[irishtenor]

***So much for the Sovereign God. It is an abstract idea in the head of a Calvinist, an idea that doesn’t exist in reality.***

Are you really saying that God is not sovereign?

[HarleyD]

You responded: That isn't what the text state. Come on, Harley, I don't have time for these games.."And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel" 1 Cor 1:16-17

There isn't any games and you've posted the reference, "Christ sent me not to baptize...". I'm not saying baptism wasn't important but if it was a method of bringing people into the Church, then Paul's statement would make no sense.

That is your theology imposing itself on the text again. While I agree that Paul is not desiring to create factions where people follow different leaders, I don't see that Paul says that "baptism is unimportant".

I'm not saying baptism wasn't important. You are saying that it was a method of bring people into the Church as the elect. I would suggest that this makes no sense in that Paul states specifically that "1Cr 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you,...". Now isn't that a rather stupid statement to make if baptism is a way of bringing people into the Church? I would suggest that you are imposing your theological perspective on text that is rather clear. I've noticed that you conveniently left that portion out.

Most Catholics hold...that God foresaw an individual's merits in determining selection.

Wow, that is some type of admission.

My commment stands. There are no Scriptures that tell us that an individual has been predestined to eternal glory.

Given that man must merit his way and God only foresaw his merit, I can understand how you arrived at this conclusion. Unfortunately it is the wrong conclusion.

So that means that God doesn't love you???

That is what most non-Calvinists DON'T understand!!! The only way you can truly understand the great love the Father has for us is to truly understand the great depth of our depravity. Few, if any, like to talk about hell (even Calvinists). I find that in understanding hell one can understand the love of God. The only way I understood God's love for me was to understand what a wretched creature I am. As long as a person thinks, "I'm OK, you're OK." they will never truly understand God's love. "We are not to think more highly than we ought to think but we are to think with sober judgment." I didn't say that but it's great advice.

We can be after our regeneration begins, Harley. You are stuck in the old creation, the old man. Our charecteristics and abilities CHANGE because God effects within us a NEW CREATION.

And when does our regeneration begin? When do we receive faith? Is it before or after we have faith?

Even when the Bible says that God and man work together - the Calvinist WILL NOT HAVE IT! So much for the Sovereign God.

And where are your verses that man generates his own faith? God is sovereign yet His creatures can say no to Him. God want to save people He has already condemned to hell. God wants everyone saved, yet He only appears to certain people throughout scripture. God wants people to repent and yet is not powerful enough to bring people to repentance.

This rational was always goofy to me. The scriptures are much clearer on this side of the fence.