You have merely proven my point when you lay out some sort of percentages. God does it all in one sense, and I do it all in a different sense. But without God, my "sense" is meaningless.
Consider the parable of the sower and the seed in Matthew and Luke's Gospel.
On one plane, without the seed, God's grace, NO FRUIT WILL GROW. You can water and hoe and kiss the dirt or whatever, and no fruit will grow without that seed. On the other hand, our response ALSO FULLY determines if that seed will grow. Is the dirt prepared? Is it thorny? Is it shallow? Or is it prepared and ready for the graces? In this sense, man is responsible, since man has free will and can focus on wordly goods, or give in to satan, OR open his heart to God and ALLOW GOD to bring the seed to fruitation. Naturally, this is a parable and not a perfect analogy of what happens. However, it is clear that nothing good comes from man alone - while in another sense, being open to God's Word is dependent upon man, because man CAN refuse this grace.
Note, in Matthew's version, Jesus gives a short saying from Isaiah on WHY He teaches in parables. Clearly, GOD IS NOT "BLINDING" men, but man is responsible for turning away, as the following shows. This is just a growing number of examples that shows your view as incompatible with Christ's teachings.
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Mat 13:15
They have closed their OWN eyes, because IF they opened them, they would see that they would require to live a moral life and answer to God. They do not WANT to be converted and healed.
I don't see how the magic of metaphysics helps you here to separate the work since in your view NO ONE goes to Heaven without having done enough works in quality or quantity
Wrong. When did I ever say that I must do "enough works" to enter heaven? I think I have clearly said enough on this subject. If you desire your ears to remain closed to what I say, that is your decision. God didn't make you that way...
Therefore, God CANNOT do "everything" for man's salvation, as you claim.
God provides the seed. Will fruit grow without the seed?
Over and over and over again, Apostolics have told me on this thread that Jesus made it POSSIBLE for man to finish the job. None of them has spoken about metaphysical levels and a new paradigm.
The first sentence is true, but in a broad way. Metaphysically, grace and man's nature operates at different levels, they are not analogous, nor are they similar. Without grace, man's nature can do nothing good. This grace enables man's nature, a recreated nature, as Paul writes, with the ability to freely obey. However, as Paul and John state, men CONTINUE to sin, thus, man STILL has the ability to follow the flesh which leads to death, or follow the Spirit, which leads to eternal life. It becomes clear that we can only serve one master. While receiving the Spirit enables us to obey God, it doesn't follow that we CANNOT GRIEVE the Spirit. And what does "grieving the Spirit" mean in Scriptures, FK?
I will quote one of the most beloved of Protestant Scriptures to show you my point:
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Eph 4:30
Written to Christians, Paul tells YOU. YOU MUST NOT grieve the Spirit. Apparently, man can grieve the Spirit. What happens to those who grieve God's Spirit?
But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. Is 63:10.
Again, Paul warns them of falling into sin, because sin ruins our relationship with God. It can potentially turn us into an enemy of God.
Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. Ez 18:23-27.
SAVE HIS LIFE! On one hand, we understand that the wicked cannot save their life without God's grace. On another level, the wicked is saving HIS LIFE! Clearly, the prophet, who speaks God's Word, was NOT a Calvinist. Tell me, how is it possible that God is "pleased" with sending men to hell WITHOUT seeing his demerits, but HERE, God wants wicked men to return to Him? Sounds a bit odd, FK? Sounds like more double-talk.
We have two Calvin birds hit with one stone. The righteous CAN fall, grieving the Holy Spirit, and can die - while God certainly does not CREATE wicked people. This verse clearly tells us that He AWAITS the wicked to TURN BACK TO HIM.
Scriptures tell us one thing. Calvin tells us something totally different.
Regards
I would agree that Latins are not Pelagians. So, I'm saying that perhaps in a "third sense" (for you), that the credit is shared 50-50.
Consider the parable of the sower and the seed in Matthew and Luke's Gospel. On one plane, without the seed, God's grace, NO FRUIT WILL GROW. You can water and hoe and kiss the dirt or whatever, and no fruit will grow without that seed. On the other hand, our response ALSO FULLY determines if that seed will grow. Is the dirt prepared? Is it thorny? Is it shallow? Or is it prepared and ready for the graces? In this sense, man is responsible, since man has free will and can focus on worldly goods, or give in to satan, OR open his heart to God and ALLOW GOD to bring the seed to fruition.
Well, I think you are focusing in on the right issue. Who prepares the soil? If man does, then your interpretation would be correct. I contend, however, that it is God who prepares it. Notice that verse 23 (Matt. 13) specifically uses the word "good" when referring to the soil. Who is it that makes things "good"?
Note, in Matthew's version, Jesus gives a short saying from Isaiah on WHY He teaches in parables. Clearly, GOD IS NOT "BLINDING" men, but man is responsible for turning away, as the following shows. This is just a growing number of examples that shows your view as incompatible with Christ's teachings.
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Mat 13:15
But the next verse shoots down your theory:
Matt 13:16 : But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.
It doesn't say "Congratulations for you have decided to see!". No, it says "blessed are your eyes because they see". This is obviously only the work of God. Verse 11 backs this up:
Matt 13:11 : He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.
God gives eyes to see, men don't just decide to have them. It is God's decision, and God's alone, who sees and who is blinded.
Wrong. When did I ever say that I must do "enough works" to enter heaven?
All the time. Stop me when I say something wrong. You believe that entering Heaven is partially based upon your doing works. You believe that if someone accepted Christ at 20, then did one good work, and then turned his back on the Church, doing no more works of love, for the rest of his life, then in the greatest likelihood he would be lost. Therefore, there must be a line that you believe in EVEN IF you can't define it. (I don't even have a problem with that aspect.) That's what I'm saying and that's why I carefully said quality or quantity. For you, God MUST have some minimum standard on which to judge everyone in the area of works for salvation, without being partial.
FK: "Therefore, God CANNOT do "everything" for man's salvation, as you claim."
God provides the seed. Will fruit grow without the seed?
No, but neither will the seed grow in unprepared soil. Any farmer can tell you that. If it is man who prepares the soil, the God does NOT do everything.
Metaphysically, grace and man's nature operates at different levels, they are not analogous, nor are they similar. Without grace, man's nature can do nothing good. This grace enables man's nature, a recreated nature, as Paul writes, with the ability to freely obey.
So far so good. :)
[continuing:] However, ...
Uh-oh.
[continuing:] as Paul and John state, men CONTINUE to sin, thus, man STILL has the ability to follow the flesh which leads to death, or follow the Spirit, which leads to eternal life. It becomes clear that we can only serve one master. While receiving the Spirit enables us to obey God, it doesn't follow that we CANNOT GRIEVE the Spirit. And what does "grieving the Spirit" mean in Scriptures, FK?
It sure doesn't mean losing one's salvation. For example:
Eph 4:30 : And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
I think Latins believe that man is powerful enough to break a Holy Seal. But as AG recently illustrated in a wonderful post, the Bible says otherwise:
Rev 5:2-5 : 2 And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, "Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?" 3 But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4 I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5 Then one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals."
I take Holy Seals to be very serious. Man does not have the power to break them. Therefore, grieving the Holy Spirit can and will lead to temporal punishments, but it doesn't threaten salvation.
I see now that you used my same verse from Ephesians in support of your argument. I trust now that you see why that doesn't work.
But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. Is 63:10.
Sure, but there is no condemnation to hell in the whole rest of the chapter. There is only a beckoning to come back. When we grieve the Holy Spirit we sure can expect there to be hard times ahead. Those are used to bring us back.
[Excerpt from Ez 18:23-27:] Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live?
The comparison made through this whole section is between the obvious lost and the hypocritical who claim to be righteous but are also lost. They act the same in their wickedness. Verse 30 helps here:
Ezek 18:30 : "Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall.
Obviously, the whole House of Israel contained those who were clearly lost, and also pretenders who claimed righteousness, but were in fact hypocrites. God is talking equally to both groups.
Tell me, how is it possible that God is "pleased" with sending men to hell WITHOUT seeing his demerits, but HERE, God wants wicked men to return to Him? Sounds a bit odd, FK? Sounds like more double-talk.
It's one of the many outward calls that God makes periodically throughout scripture. We've covered this before. Taken literally, this passage has God begging. Is God a beggar? :)
We have two Calvin birds hit with one stone. The righteous CAN fall, grieving the Holy Spirit, and can die - while God certainly does not CREATE wicked people. This verse clearly tells us that He AWAITS the wicked to TURN BACK TO HIM.
Nope. The righteous can fall and can grieve the Holy Spirit. They might even physically die because of it. But this does not threaten their salvation. God's Seal is unbreakable by man. ...... On the second point, all men are born wicked. I'm surprised you would argue with that. In any case, it is true that the saved do commit wicked acts, and God will turn them back to Him, or bring them home.