Have you not said that God ordains EVERYTHING, to include reprobating people to hell?
Joe, you said "God doesn't create people TO eternally torture them. God does not take pleasure in killing or in death. That is what the "reformers" claim." (emphasis added) Others on your side have said that we believe God takes "delight" in the suffering of others. Your side is attempting to create a word picture for lurkers that makes no logical sense to the things we are saying. I can handle political-type spin, we all do that, but this doesn't even make any sense.
Yes, I have said that God ordains everything that is part of His plan, and that includes reprobating many people. The Bible says He does this in His good pleasure, but I think it is intellectually dishonest for anyone to create a word picture from this that God is some kind of blood-thirsty maniacal killer. Nobody thinks that.
Now, I ask, when God reprobates a person to hell before seeing that man's demerits, what possesses your god to do this? Does God do this out of great love? I think you need to seriously re-assess WHY God reprobates undeserving people to eternal torture - what other reason than "he gets his jollies out of suffering people"? We admit God is free and does not do things against His will.
Joe, you above all others that I can think of around here, always bring out the "God-is-out-of-time-so-we-can't-talk-about-this" card. :) Now you want to talk about God witnessing demerits before making any decisions. Is this consistent?
God chooses some who do not deserve it to be saved. Everyone else gets what he or she deserves. Is that so awful? I would say this is a tremendous act of love by God. Apparently, your side believes that God OWES man all sorts of things, such as a chance to be saved by his merits (or lack of demerits). No one has explained to me yet where this duty you artificially place on God comes from. If God actually DID have such a duty, THEN you would be in a position to claim a maniacal God for denying the chance to the reprobate. Your side is setting rules for God that we don't believe any man, or hierarchy of men, has the right or power to set.
[continuing:] So explain why God creates people to go specifically to hell without deserving it?
This perfectly illustrates my above point. Why in the world would you think there is ANY man who doesn't deserve to go to hell? We all do. This again is the warrantless glorification of man and the subjection of God TO man's rules and ideas of what should be. The Bible teaches plainly that NONE is deserving of Heaven. Yet, you tell me that most people do not deserve to go to hell. We have to accept the Bible as it IS, not what we want it to be.
Since Christ died for ALL men - and this is beyond refute - it would be an outright lie to say God desires all men to be saved - and at the same time, say God creates men to be vessels of condemnation. That is flatly contradictory.
This is beyond refute? LOL! Then I officially refute it using the dozen or so verses that have already been posted to you multiple times on this thread alone. There, it's been refuted. :) I've been following your conversation with Dr. E. on this. Just as she said, what Christ did was powerful enough to cover all people, but it was only efficacious for the elect. By God's will then, it was only FOR the elect. The logical result of the Apostolic view is that God was/is a colossal failure. I cannot countenance "God as failure", so I don't consider that as a possibility.
The Bible doesn't say that God creates PURPOSELY to be evil.
Of course it does. For example:
Rom 9:14-18 : 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy . 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
What is the black and white meaning of this passage to you?
God does not create men to BECOME lost. They become lost on their own accord.
You are half right. God does not create man to become lost because it is IMPOSSIBLE to become lost. Since Adam, All mankind is born lost. So in the sense of salvation by belief, it is only possible to BECOME saved.
We read the OT in light of the NT, not based on the incomplete idea of revelation given to the Jews during the time of the writing of respective books in the OT. Doctrine develops. That is clear in when looking at the NT and comparing it to the OT. If anyone believes that Christ came to fulfill the Law, then we are left with no other option than to attempt to reconcile the OT with what is in the NT. The NT is the guide for reading the OT - ONLY because we believe Christ fulfills the Law, the meaning of the OT.
OK, that sounds more reasonable. No one says that the OT trumps the NT. But the OT is no less true either, IMO. There must be a way to reconcile so that both are true, and I believe that Scripture always provides the way. Therefore, wiping out huge sections of the OT is not a reasonable option.
Regarding some of your notations, is the existence of Jonah necessary to believe that Jesus was the Christ? IF it was a parable, does it change anything?
Indirectly, I would say yes. Starting with the premise that the whole of the Bible is God's inspired Holy word, the narrative of the Jonah story, and many others as well, is presented in a factual tone. So is the story of Jesus' ministry, passion, and resurrection. Names and places are prominently mentioned and are a part of the story. The vast majority of parables do not have this feature, and are thus easy to spot. If a person decided to declare OT stories A, B, D, G, and K to be myths, then I do not see the standing that the same person could have for believing that the critical Christian stories involving Christ were to be taken literally. These stories all "read" the same in tone. It makes no sense to me for some to say that Jonah living in the belly of a fish for three days is preposterous, but Jesus raising from the dead is no problem. The power behind both of these events came from the SAME SOURCE. :) Therefore, I believe that the historicity of the Bible is extremely important. Without that, I think the door is wide open for all sorts of unfortunate results.
As to God killing, we note that this is no different than observing astronomy. We note that the "sun rises" to our eyes, although we know this is not the case, the earth turns. In the same way, the Jews believed that God "killed" the Jewish enemies, because that was the perception on the ground - since Israel was God's people, they attributed their work to God's divine purpose and will. Jesus teaches something else. Even later OT writings teach something else.
Perhaps this is a good example of what I was just talking about. :) Over and over again in the OT, stories are related that could not possibly be rationally caused by human effort or the "luck" of natural disasters. Did an earthquake or something really bring down the walls of Jericho at the exact moment the trumpets blew? Did the Red Sea part through natural phenomena at that exact moment when the Israelites had their backs to the wall? Did all the first born among the Egyptians suddenly keel over from heart attacks on the same night the Israelites painted their doors with blood (thus establishing the Passover)? Impossible.
If the historicity of the OT is declared to be false, then it is necessarily true that the OT is packed floor to ceiling with a raft of colossal LIES. Legends, myths, and falsehoods. From there, IMO, it's literally anything goes, and I can't help but think that this would logically bleed over into the NT. I'm sure there are many heresies that we both agree upon that have capitalized on this very idea. That's why I think there is very little room for error in this area. We can say that very many Jews misinterpreted the OT. However, that is very different from saying that the OT itself was wrong in the writing.
Would our God allow the Jews to wrongly attribute to Him deeds He had not done in HIS Holy revelation to all of mankind? A revelation God knew would be the standard all the way until the time of His return? That seems highly unlikely to me. :)
FK, if God reprobates people BEFORE viewing their demerits (a philosophical view, not scriptural), then we must assume that God's will is to send people to hell for absolutely no reason but some arbitrary decision. Do you claim that God does this against His will? If God reprobates such people, and simultaneously saying that God is free, please explain how God does something He does not consider to be good and "enjoyable". It is God's nature to work good - and He does this because it is His will. Thus, if God actively does something, He actively enjoys it. Are you following my logic?
We believe, with the Scriptures and our view of God, that God does NOT actively reprobate souls BEFORE seeing their demerits. God sends people to hell as punishment for something man did or did not do. It is not God's will that man disobey Him. God ALLOWS it, but this "allowance" is God's will, not the action that man takes that is evil.
As to whether lurkers can make sense of this or not, they are certainly free to chime in publically or privately to either of us. I will presume that they can follow our argument if they do not protest or question.
Yes, I have said that God ordains everything that is part of His plan, and that includes reprobating many people. The Bible says He does this in His good pleasure, but I think it is intellectually dishonest for anyone to create a word picture from this that God is some kind of blood-thirsty maniacal killer. Nobody thinks that.
Well, people associate "pleasure" to something that is pleasing. Thus, the word picture remains. If God actively is pleased to send people to hell based on absolutely NO DEMERITS WHATSOEVER, what does that make your god to be? I leave the lurkers to decide. You can provide all the spin you like, but the fact remains that your god APPEARS sadistic, not loving. It APPEARS that God randomly and arbitrarily creates a being JUST so that they can eternally suffer - for absolutely no reason whatsoever, but to "please" your god.
This is a revolting picture for those who believe God IS love. Love gives of itself to the other. Love does not randomly select beings to create and then torture, just to "please" oneself.
Thanks, but no thanks. It is not what Christ taught. I pray that you recognize that the Scriptures are clarified by Christ, since they all point to Him. Do you read the Gospels and really come up with the god of Calvin? Do you read such verses and think that God reprobates WITHOUT seeing demerits? Let's look at a few verses to get an idea WHO God REALLY is, FK...
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen [doth gather] her brood under [her] wings, and ye would not!Luke 13:34.
Can't you hear the Words of God? IF ONLY YOU WOULD TURN TO ME - BUT YOU WOULD NOT!!!
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. John 3:16-20
Again, we have God's GREAT Love, even going so far as to offer His only Son for the sake of the WORLD. Note, the Scriptures say that men refuse, that some men will not come to the light, even when it is shown to them. It says that a person is condemned BECAUSE they WILL NOT believe. This is not the idea of reprobating BEFORE demerits!
This idea is certainly not confined to the Gospels:
And they remembered that God [was] their rock, and the high God their redeemer. Nevertheless they did flatter him with their mouth, and they lied unto him with their tongues. For their heart was not right with him, neither were they stedfast in his covenant. But he, [being] full of compassion, forgave [their] iniquity, and destroyed [them] not: yea, many a time turned he his anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath. For he remembered that they [were but] flesh; a wind that passeth away, and cometh not again. How oft did they provoke him in the wilderness, [and] grieve him in the desert! Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel. They remembered not his hand, [nor] the day when he delivered them from the enemy. Ps 78:35-42
Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn [yourselves] from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn [yourselves], and live ye. Ezekiel 18:30-32
God finds NO PLEASURE in the death of ANYONE. Read the rest of that chapter, FK. Even those who commit evil, God desires them to turn to Him. Where is your idea that God takes "pleasure" in eternally torturing someone WITHOUT SEEING THEIR DEMERITS? WHERE is this concept in scriptures?
And finally, my favorite Psalm, one that sometimes brings tears to my eyes because it shows the type of God who calls us
Thou calledst in trouble, and I delivered thee; I answered thee in the secret place of thunder: I proved thee at the waters of Meribah. Selah. Hear, O my people, and I will testify unto thee: O Israel, if thou wilt hearken unto me; There shall no strange god be in thee; neither shalt thou worship any strange god. I [am] the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt: open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it. But my people would not hearken to my voice; and Israel would none of me. So I gave them up unto their own hearts' lust: [and] they walked in their own counsels. Oh that my people had hearkened unto me, [and] Israel had walked in my ways! I should soon have subdued their enemies, and turned my hand against their adversaries. Psalm 81:7-14
Can't you hear God's voice, almost a frustration that His people would not come to Him? Sounds a lot like the voice of Christ in Luke's quote above, doesn't it? And THIS is the same God who you think creates people to eternally destroy, for His good "pleasure", WITHOUT SEEING THEIR DEMERITS?
The Bible speaks eloquently about God's love, His calling to men, to join Him in eternal union. Your picture of who God is contradicts a basic Christian paradigm of the God of Love, a God of forgiveness, One who would even send His Son to die for mankind as a whole. This God who desires ALL men to be saved has sent His Son to atone for the sins of ALL men. Scriptures clearly tell us this.
Your god is not the Christian god, I'm sorry to say. Your god is one who randomly creates beings to send to hell without seeing whether this being deserves such eternal torture. The two ideas are totally incompatible. You can't have it both ways. Either God is arbitrary or God is just. Either God is sadistic or God is love. Either God seeks men to save or God willingly and for his own pleasure, creates beings to torture in eternity.
Regards