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“”God desires all men to be saved “”

Certainly.

“The Lord delayeth not his promise, as some imagine, but dealeth patiently for your sake, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, but that all should return to penance.”
2 Peter 3:9 Douay-Rheims

“For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus: Who gave himself a redemption for ALL, a testimony in due times”
1 Timothy 2:5 Douay-Rheims

Dear FK
God wills all to be saved, but our salvation depends on our willingness to repent and receive God’s grace.

The more I study typology of scripture....the more I find many loopholes for error in the KJV Bible and without a doubt in the NIV .

FK said.. referring to Rev 4:11
“”Your side takes the word “pleasure” from the KJV and twists it into “jollies”. Your argument is with the scriptures, not us. God creates all people ultimately for His own glory. He uses the saved and the lost alike toward this end.””

Here is the Douay-Rheims Rev 4:11

Thou art worthy, O Lord our God, to receive glory, and honour, and power: because thou hast created all things; and for thy will they were, and have been created.

I’m not sure that “pleasure” belongs in there

Perhaps Kosta50 can comment further, since he has commented on KJV translation errors in the past.

Time for Mass.

I wish everyone a Blessed day

Dear FK God wills all to be saved, but our salvation depends on our willingness to repent and receive God’s grace.

Catholics recognize what you mean by this statement, but to the Protestant ear, it will sound like you are separating God's work and man's response - thus, God does not do all.

Protestants are under a philosophical error that makes it difficult to break free from and understand the paradox of "free will" and "grace". They consider that man and God work on the same plane - as if God and man are both tied to bridles and set to pull the same wagon. If man does ANY of this work, then God does less. Thus, in your statement above, to the Protestant, it will appear that you are again dividing the work.

For FK, I would like to say that in the formula above, it is correctly stated - BUT there is a caveat to add. God does EVERYTHING for man and salvation. But in another sense, man must respond to God's grace through faith working in love. These two things are not set against each other (like the above example pulling the wagon). They are on different metaphysical levels. It is understood that we TOTALLY rely on God's graces to do ANYTHING. Thus, for us, we totally depend on God, while, simultaneously and on a different level, are expected to utilize those graces (so as not to grieve the Spirit) to respond in love.

As St. Augustine said, we are only returning to God the gifts that He has given us. How can this be called "works salvation" when anything good we do is a result of God's will (as in Phil 2:12-13)? We cannot boast because we are ONLY able to do good while IN CHRIST. We are only secondary causes. God is the primary cause of our salvation. Because of His graces, we are enabled to react to Him.

Regards

Re Rev 4:11...KJV/Douay-Rheims discrepancy..Perhaps Kosta50 can comment further, since he has commented on KJV translation errors in the past

Thank you stfassisi. One thing I realized in my previous objections to KJV translations is that the Protestants have the deep conceptual differences in their vocabulary.

These differences lead to different theology. The word in question is thelema, which is, in its secondary meaning defined as "will, choice, inclination, desire, pleasure." Not here that the term pleasure is equated to will (as in "as I please") whereas the word pleasure really means a sensation of pleasure which is anthropomorphic term of passion/corruption which the Protestants routinely assign to God because it suggests that God is subject to pleasure.

Thus, when it comes to words such as "salvation," or "will" the Protestant theology departs along these anthropomorphic lines, reducing God to human-like emotions and pleasures, in the literalist tradition "because the Bible says so."

The same difficulty arises from the verse "God desires all men to be saved..." The word desire is equated to will, just as pleasure is.

What does Rev. 4:11 mean? Easy; it means what it says:

Ἄξιος εἶ, ὁ Κύριος καὶ ὁ Θεὸς ἡμῶν, λαβεῖν τὴν δόξαν καὶ τὴν τιμὴν καὶ τὴν δύναμιν, ὅτι σὺ ἔκτισας τὰ πάντα, καὶ διὰ τὸ θέλημά σου ἦσαν καὶ ἐκτίσθησαν.

By the way, StFA is nearest to correct. FK, there's a reason why The Church has stuck with the original...it avoids so many problems.

Dear FK - God wills all to be saved, but our salvation depends on our willingness to repent and receive God’s grace.

Technically, there is probably a way I could agree to those exact words, but we wouldn't be talking about the same thing. :) I could easily and freely say that salvation wouldn't happen without our willingness to repent. The tougher issue for me would be the receiving God's grace part. My view is that the original grace that leads to belief really just "happens" to the future believer. In our born state, we are not capable of seeking out this grace, so God pretty much just gives it to His elect. After that, the elect seek out God.

Here is the Douay-Rheims Rev 4:11 - Thou art worthy, O Lord our God, to receive glory, and honour, and power: because thou hast created all things; and for thy will they were, and have been created.

I’m not sure that “pleasure” belongs in there.

I don't have any problem with the Douay-Rheims here. It's "will" vs. "pleasure". I said in a very recent post that I thought that "pleasure" as intended in the text just meant "what God wanted". This would be identical with "will".

I also wish you a Blessed day. :)