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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; jo kus; MarkBsnr; irishtenor; HarleyD; wmfights; blue-duncan
If you deny the OT God then you deny the NT God that was revealed to you

Well, the Gospels and the OT are like night and day. God doesn't change from a tyrant humble servant; God doesn't change from a hater to a lover. That would be way too human even for God!

The OT righteous DID recognize Christ as God in the coming

And what was God doing for 1700 or so years by hiding His real identity from the vast majority of the Jews? Playing games with them? If God would desire all men to be saved then why would He keep all these people for centuries in darkness? Because He so loves the world?

The OT righteous DID recognize Christ as God in the coming

Oh yeah? By attributing to God all the death and destruction? That seems to be the characteristic of three groups so far: the OT Jews, fundamentalist Christians and Muslims. Whatever they do, they did/do because supposedly God "orders" them to do these things! So, when the Islamic thugs bomb an Israeli pizza parlor they are doing "God's work..."

In other words, it's either an excuse or insanity in their heads. It's not the God of the Gospels, not the Christian God, for sure.

The righteous Jews were not so misguided

And WHO misguided them according to your theology? Is it not God? Is it not God who predestined them from before foundations of the world to be misguided?

9,069 posted on 10/15/2007 5:42:51 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; Kolokotronis; jo kus; MarkBsnr; irishtenor; HarleyD; wmfights; blue-duncan
Well, the Gospels and the OT are like night and day. God doesn't change from a tyrant humble servant; God doesn't change from a hater to a lover. That would be way too human even for God!

At first blush it can certainly appear that way. But that is only because of applying human standards to what is "hate" or what is a "tyrant". If I tell God in a prayer that I hated sin, would you say that I have sinned by hating? I wouldn't think that I had sinned. In addition, I don't think that one can say that the OT only shows a God of vengeance, etc., and the the NT only shows a God of love by human standards. The OT has plenty showing God's love for us (Genesis, Exodus, Jeremiah, Psalms, etc.). There are tons of examples. Likewise, God kills at least three people in the NT.

And what was God doing for 1700 or so years by hiding His real identity from the vast majority of the Jews? Playing games with them? If God would desire all men to be saved then why would He keep all these people for centuries in darkness? Because He so loves the world?

Neither of us can have any idea how many of the OT Jews were saved. But I would disagree that God was hiding His identity. He was all over the place in the OT speaking directly with people. As far as the Christ that we know, they were looking forward to Him, that is, those who just went by the scriptures were looking forward to Him. You are right that many translated the scriptures into some other Christ that they were expecting. God gave eyes to see and ears to hear to those He chose, and they waited for the correct Christ.

Oh yeah? By attributing to God all the death and destruction? That seems to be the characteristic of three groups so far: the OT Jews, fundamentalist Christians and Muslims. Whatever they do, they did/do because supposedly God "orders" them to do these things! So, when the Islamic thugs bomb an Israeli pizza parlor they are doing "God's work..."

We know that the Islamic God is not the Christian God, so it is a false god by definition. We don't need to go any further. But if you say that the Christian God did not order what He ordered in the OT, then the OT is lost. There is too much material that would have to be tossed in order to save the Testament.

In other words, it's either an excuse or insanity in their heads. It's not the God of the Gospels, not the Christian God, for sure.

Why do you say it can't be the same God? Because love doesn't kill? If so, then I would ask you if love allows a loved one to kill himself, even if one could have prevented it with the slightest effort. You would have to say "yes". So, "love" is a little more complicated than the pretty bow we all like to tie on it. :) And again, if the OT authors were making excuses or were "insane" then the OT is lost.

And WHO misguided [OT Jews] according to your theology? Is it not God? Is it not God who predestined them from before foundations of the world to be misguided?

We both know that the OT Jews, that is, the masses in general, were on a yo-yo string throughout the OT. God revealed His power to them, then they believed, then they fell away, then God showed His power again, then they believed again, then they fell away again, and on and on and on. For His own reasons, God obviously chose not to sustain their belief corporately for extended periods of time. Of course, everyone from Jesus' time forward has learned from that because we see ourselves. It is so easy for us to look back at them and laugh, saying "what were they thinking?". But then we look in the mirror and stop laughing. :)

9,102 posted on 10/15/2007 2:17:57 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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