Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: Iscool; blue-duncan; P-Marlowe
And do any of those popes even remotely resemble Peter??? Or any of the other Apostles, or disciples???

I was thinking "Herod the Great."

87 posted on 07/23/2007 8:08:34 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 84 | View Replies ]


To: All
Okay, normally I stay out of these threads. Actually, I've been lurking at FR for a long time, and completely forgot I had this account. In the interest of full disclosure, I am just a baby compared to most of you on this forum (22 years old), and have been ruined for life in the Jesuit tradition (educated at Cheverus HS in Maine, and Boston College).

However, having been given the same charge as St. Francis Xavier, I feel the need to comment on many of the issues brought up here.

First, in regards to whether or not real, physical, human succession is important, I would direct those who claim it is not to Acts 8:14-23.

14Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John,

15who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.

16For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

17Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.

18Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money,

19saying, "Give this authority to me as well, so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit."

20But Peter said to him, "May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money!

21"You have no part or portion in this matter, for your heart is not right before God.

22"Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that, if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you.

23"For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bondage of iniquity."

24But Simon answered and said, "Pray to the Lord for me yourselves, so that nothing of what you have said may come upon me."

Baptism isn't simply enough to receive the authority, as we can see here. The believers had been baptized, but they needed those who had received the Spirit on Pentecost to confer their authority. Ergo, I would say that the authority of the apostles was essentially to becoming a True Church.

Similarly, we know that Jesus had many followers. However, not all of them were gifted with the Holy Spirit. Instead, he had chosen others specifically for these positions of leadership. It was not simply a communal congregation talking about Jesus and doing works according to his teachings; there were clearly those in positions of power and leadership. However, the positions they were put in forced them into leadership roles which were unheard of at the time. Much like many Jews sought a King or Warlord Messiah, and, as such, would not recognize the Suffering Messiah, Jesus appointed Servant Leaders, a tradition which continues today and the Church recognizes; one of the titles the Pope goes by is "Servus Servorum Dei" - Servant of the Servants of God.

Now, some Popes were certainly terrible human beings. I don't think many Catholics are in rush to defend the deeds committed by some of the Medici-era Popes. However, personal failings do not directly relate to the legitimacy of an office, even the Papacy. Catholic teachings say that the Pope is infallible when speaking ex cathedra on matters of Faith and Morals - backroom political deals, underhanded schemes and murders all are terrible acts, but they are NOT official teachings.

On the issue of signage, it is nitpicking on all fronts IMHO. While I certainly believe that Orthodox, in its historic usage, denotes Right Belief (as contrasted with orthopraxy, Right Practice, which, again IMHO, is more Christian). Lutheran simply denotes those believers see Christ and His teaching in Luther's tradition. I think it is wrong, but I don't believe it makes them "un-Christian".

Now, this is my argument which I have yet to hear a strong answer to. Is there a natural Hierarchy in this world? I would say yes; I firmly believe that Man is the summit of creation on Earth, that Angels exist and are higher beings than us, and that the various Choirs of Angels have various ranks. Further, I believe certain people have greater gifts, talents, and responsibilities than others.

This does not take away from the true equality we have - we are all made in the likeness of God, and with that comes inherent dignity. However, it is a very modern concept that all Mankind is completely equal, without a natural hierarchy. I am very Platonic in my beliefs on Government as provided in The Republic - there is a natural order, with some meant to lead, others meant to guard, and others meant to produce. I think that our Republic, while the finest government man can likely realistically have due to the Sin of Adam, is not ideal, by any stretch. Watching some of the TV shows which demonstrate, I am sorry to say, the complete ignorance of the voting population (try watching Leno's Jaywalking segments, stuff from The View, or anything similar!) shows me that I do NOT want everyone to vote, although I believe they should have the right, which they should be wise enough to exercise cautiously.

To make it more blunt, I believe that God gives men certain talents, two of which are wisdom and leadership. I do not believe these are doled out equally. As such, I believe the Holy Spirit works within the Hierarchy of the Church, which mirrors the Hierarchy of All Creation, in order to preserve truth and teach definitively on Faith and Morals. Hierarchy is natural, present in His Creation, and the Reformers insistence on Sola Scriptura without definitive teaching goes against that order.

There, tear me apart :-D Just do it with Charity, true Christian love ;-)

Also, I won't be responding to any replies, but hopefully some others will take up my cause - I will be away from my lurking post for awhile on some personal business, but I've been thinking this for a long time, and finally this thread pushed me to post.

179 posted on 07/23/2007 11:44:18 AM PDT by k2fourever
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 87 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson