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To: Forest Keeper
God's ways are not our ways. I also note that you are putting your money on His omniscience INSTEAD of His omnipotence. This of course erases the concept of God even having a plan. God just watches the events of human history, then snaps His fingers and says: "Yep, that's my plan"! :) This isn't God's plan at all, it is God simply signing off on whatever man decides for himself.

Must I "council" you again on God and time? :-) You are putting God on a timeline again.

Remember, God is infinite. In infinity, there is no difference between "omnipotence" and "omniscience". Such things are immeasurable. There is no 'lesser' or 'greater' or focusing on one aspect over another in God.

Now to rattle your pickle...

Every point on an infinite line is the same point! Think about it.

I think this short lesson on "infinity" can help us to understand how God can allow Man's Free Will and His Sovereignty to co-exist without one overriding the other...

Nicholas of Cusa wrote some interesting stuff on comparing God and infinity to Geometry...

Regards

8,005 posted on 10/02/2007 4:51:59 PM PDT by jo kus
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To: jo kus; Forest Keeper
God can allow Man's Free Will and His Sovereignty to co-exist without one overriding the other

Are you suggesting that "Man's Free Will" (notice the Capital letters) is on a par equal to "His Sovereignty"? (also in Capital letters)

8,007 posted on 10/02/2007 5:14:09 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: jo kus

It is a hard concept.


8,011 posted on 10/02/2007 8:02:33 PM PDT by tiki
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To: jo kus; Forest Keeper; Dr. Eckleburg
Just a quick comment for the discussion.

The word infinity comes from the Latin infinitas or "unboundedness."

And in mathematics, infinity is an unbounded quantity that is greater than every real number.

Eternity – or infinite time – is time without end, without boundary. Time counts, but without end.

Time is geometric. In our perceptible universe, there are four dimensions, three of space and one of time. But there may likely be additional dimensions, either spatial or temporal.

Moreover, space/time is part of the Creation and not a property of the Creator.

Therefore, the term “timeless” would be more appropriate in meditating on God the Creator.

Or as a physicist around here grudgingly admitted after observing that there had to be a beginning of real space and real time for there to be any causality at all - “existence exists” LOL!

In Nicholas of Cusa's day most everyone believed in a steady state universe. Indeed, the insight that there was a real beginning of space and time came from the measurement of cosmic microwave background radiation in the 1960's. It was the most theological statement ever to come out of science.

A Name of God is I AM.

His Names are also Alpha and Omega. Jesus Christ is the First Cause and the Final Cause of "all that there is."

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.– Col 1:15-20

Praise God!!!

8,013 posted on 10/02/2007 9:26:53 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: jo kus; Forest Keeper; HarleyD; wmfights; blue-duncan; suzyjaruki; Alamo-Girl; irishtenor; ...
You are putting God on a timeline again.

God put Himself on a timeline when He created the world and time itself. He did that for a reason. We are creatures. We understand linearly.

To say "Poof! God is infinite and therefore cause and effect don't matter" is simplistic.

God created cause and effect. God is the cause. We are the effect.

To deny that God had a "preordained" plan of salvation before you were born is to deny the Scriptures. Period. It's there in black and white for all to read.

God created the heavens and the earth in seven days. On the FIRST day He created the light and the darkness. On the SECOND day He created the firmament. On the THIRD day He created the earth , etc.

God is timeless, but He created within time. And He created the human mind to understand time for a reason -- because He wants His creatures to understand the order of existence -- God creates and men are created.

He decreed the end from the beginning. THAT is the most important aspect of what we are to know of time.

"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure" -- Isaiah 46:10


"That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been" -- Ecclesiastes 3:15

That isn't just poetic hyperbole on the part of God. That's the truth of existence.

It's hard to wrap our minds around this considering we are all indoctrinated with the modernist "Just Do It" mentality, but we "just do it" by God's will. And the rewards of that understanding are great.

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." -- Philippians 2:13

8,046 posted on 10/03/2007 10:25:27 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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