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To: kosta50; blue-duncan; 1000 silverlings; HarleyD; Forest Keeper; wmfights; xzins; P-Marlowe; ...
Being saved for having babies is part of "sanctification" and not "justification?" So there are two ways of being saved?

1 Tim 2:15 — she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

We are not saved because we have children. Children are a gift. The phrase "she shall be saved in childbearing" refers to the pain of childbirth and the fact that if we realize God gives us our children, as He gives us everything else, we will bear the pain more easily.

You have a very strange perception of 1 Timothy 2.

From Calvin's Commentary on 1 Timothy 2...

"But she shall be saved"

The weakness of the sex renders women more suspicious and timid, and the preceding statement might greatly terrify and alarm the strongest minds. For these reasons he modifies what he had said by adding a consolation; for the Spirit of God does not accuse or reproach us, in order to triumph over us, when we are covered with shame, but, when we have been cast down, immediately raises us up. It might have the effect (as I have already said) of striking terror into the minds of women, when they were informed that the destruction of the whole human race was attributed to them; for what will be this condemnation? Especially when their subjection, as a testimony of the wrath of God, is constantly placed before their eyes. Accordingly, Paul, in order to comfort them and render their condition tolerable, informs them that they continue to enjoy the hope of salvation, though they suffer a temporal punishment. It is proper to observe that the good effect of this consolation is twofold. First, by the hope of salvation held out to them, they are prevented from falling into despair through alarm at the mention of their guilt. Secondly, they become accustomed to endure calmly and patiently the necessity of servitude, so as to submit willingly to their husbands, when they are informed that this kind of obedience is both profitable to themselves and acceptable to God. If this passage be tortured, as Papists are wont to do, to support the righteousness of works, the answer is easy. The Apostle does not argue here about the cause of salvation, and therefore we cannot and must not infer from these words what works deserve; but they only shew in what way God conducts us to salvation, to which he has appointed us through his grace.

"Through child-bearing"

To censorious men it might appear absurd, for an Apostle of Christ not only to exhort women to give attention to the birth of offspring, but to press this work as religious and holy to such an extent as to represent it in the light of the means of procuring salvation. Nay, we even see with what reproaches the conjugal bed has been slandered by hypocrites, who wished to be thought more holy than all other men. But there is no difficulty in replying to these sneers of the ungodly. First, here the Apostle does not speak merely about having children, but about enduring all the distresses, which are manifold and severe, both in the birth and in the rearing of children. Secondly, whatever hypocrites or wise men of the world may think of it, when a woman, considering to what she has been called, submits to the condition which God has assigned to her, and does not refuse to endure the pains, or rather the fearful anguish, of parturition, or anxiety about her offspring, or anything else that belongs to her duty, God values this obedience more highly than if, in some other manner, she made a great display of heroic virtues, while she refused to obey the calling of God. To this must be added, that no consolation could be more appropriate or more efficacious then to shew that the very means (so to speak) of procuring salvation are found in the punishment itself.

If they continue in faith In consequence of the old translation having used the expression, "the birth of children," it has been commonly thought that this clause refers to the children. But the term used by Paul to denote "child-bearing" is a single word, τεκνογονία, and therefore it must refer to the women. As to the verb being plural, and the noun singular, this involves no difficulty; for an indefinite noun, at least when it denotes a multitude, has the force of a collective noun, and therefore easily admits a change from the singular to the plural number.

Besides, that he might not represent all the virtue of women as included in the duties of marriage, immediately afterwards he adds greater virtues, in which it is proper that godly women should excel, that they may differ from irreligious women. Even "child-bearing" is obedience acceptable to God, only so far as it proceeds from faith and love. To these two he adds sanctification, which includes all the purity of life which becomes Christian women. Lastly follows sobriety, which he formerly mentioned, while he was speaking about dress; but now he extends it more widely to the other parts of life.

Having children and pain in childbirth are NOT part of anyone's justification. We are justified by faith in Christ's atonement alone.

7,770 posted on 09/30/2007 5:31:50 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

And babies, lots of babies :>)


7,771 posted on 09/30/2007 5:33:27 PM PDT by irishtenor (Presbyterianism is pure Christianity.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; blue-duncan; D-fendr; kawaii; MarkBsnr; Kolokotronis; 1000 silverlings; HarleyD; ...
You have a very strange perception of 1 Timothy 2.

You find my understanding of 1 Timothy 2 strange? Let's see what 1 Timothy 2:9-15 says

9In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

Wow, how many "bible-believeing" women follow that rule? 

10But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

 11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

Oh, yeah, that is obvious in all pious "bible-believing" women as well.

12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Whoaaa! Do you read this: in silence?

13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

 14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Nothing like a little "compliment" for a gullable Eve. St. Paul is saying, it's Eve's fault.

15Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

They are to be faithful, obedient, submissive, modest, sober baby factories. That's their "role" in God's plan of salvation according to St. Paul.

And please don't tell me this applies only to women in "those days" and that cultural setting, because 1000 silverlings just got through telling everyone that the word of God is eternal and universal and that it applies to all the people all the time.   :)

None of this strikes you as a little strange? I know, a head buried in the sand is all one needs to believe the sun doesn't shine.

 

7,779 posted on 09/30/2007 8:08:22 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; irishtenor; Forest Keeper; blue-duncan; 1000 silverlings
"Having children and pain in childbirth are NOT part of anyone's justification."

Don't be too hasty here, we could start a new dogma. Think about it. There are several women in my church with more than 8 kids. We could start a treasury of merit, so that the church could use the extra salvation that these women aren't using, to save the ladies who have no children.;)

7,850 posted on 10/01/2007 11:22:08 AM PDT by suzyjaruki (Why?)
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