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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Context, Dr. E., context.

Begin in Chapter 13, when Jesus gathers all of the Apostles together for the Last Supper. He speaks to and about them through to Chapter 17, verse 19.

At verse 20, he THEN says “I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,
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so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. “


Is it not apparent that He changes the objects of His discourse at verse 20? I pray (now) not only for them (the Apostles), but also for (all) those who would believe in His Word.

This is simply moving from the more specific (the Apostles gathered) to the general (the world of men).

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“I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,
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so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me.
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And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one,
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I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.

The world, Dr. E. All of it. All men. So that all men may know that You sent me and that you loved all of them even as you loved me. Sounds pretty inclusivist to me.

Jesus is saying here that God’s love is for all men, not just those whose names were picked out of the cosmic cookie jar. No wonder you guys shun the Gospels in favour of Paul.


7,594 posted on 09/29/2007 9:53:50 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: MarkBsnr
I pray (now) not only for them (the Apostles), but also for (all) those who would believe in His Word. This is simply moving from the more specific (the Apostles gathered) to the general (the world of men).

LOL. Read the text, Mark. Not "would believe," but "shall believe."

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word" -- John 17:20

The "general" is very specific here. "Those who will believe within the world of men;" not "all the world of men."

Jesus is saying here that God's love is for all men

That is not what the words say, Mark. The words on the page say Christ only prays for those whom the Father has given Him -- the Apostles in the room and all those in the future who will believe in Him.

Take off those magisterium spectacles and read the words for yourself. They could not be any clearer.

7,607 posted on 09/29/2007 10:54:57 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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