I do not think that the reply I say 'amen' to was addressed to the Roman Catholics.
Well, I guess I have a dog in the fight anyway, because I'm in the "without parts or passions" school of thought.
I do think that there is a different notion of what passion is. (Darn, you are making me WORK here! I HATE that!)
In conversation about what God is (which should be preceded and followed by acts of humility) I mean by "passion" a movement of appetite or desire or revulsion. I don't think God has desires and appetites the way we do, or finds them interfering with His will the way we do.
When I had sheep, some veterinary procedures in some cases were just impossible for me because the smells revolted me so much as to make me unable to act. I'd have to pay the vet (I SWEAR - only kidding - that man can't smell ANYTHING!) to do what I could not do.
This is actually kind of related to your next disagreement with moi in #6015
God does not choose to be what He is, He is what He is because He is God.
Thus, God doesn't choose to be Love, God is Love.
To me that's a complete non-sequitur. I don't see how it's an argument. (I'm not putting it down, I'm revealing my incompetence)
On the other hand, here's how it looks to me:
I am "stuck with" who and what and how I am. I can't grow taller, add to the hairs on my head, or do a whole lot about my innate disposition toward depression and so forth. Sometimes it's okay being Mad Dawg, sometimes not, but there's not much I can do about it.
Pollyanna Rivanna Luxapalila Chincoteague Dot Org(andy) the cat doesn't even think about whether she wants to be a cat.
But in God nothing is an accident. Nothing "happens" to God. He is not Stuck with anything. He is what He is and He chooses to be what he is. That's not so say He chose among options. "Hmm, shall I be a loving God, or should I do the Krang from the Pit thing? What to do, what to do?" But He wills everything including Himself. He IS a God of Love and He WILLS to be a God of Love.
So John 3:16 is His working out in history, in created time, in the sphere of mobility and mutability, of what He has always willed.
However, immutability does not mean immobility.What is motion but a change in place with respect to time? What is mutability but the ability to change? It seems to me immutability means precisely immobility. How do we hack through this?
HarleyD quoth
Have you considered that God could have a different type of these same attributes? For example God can love us with a godly love but that would not necessarily be the same as our humanly love.And I say the difference is that our love is shot through with "appetite", with "feelings", with passions. And it feels like it "happens to us". To the extent that it is chosen, it is will born along by passion, and often, sooner or later, will must slog on when the passions either quit or actively work against will. God's love is chosen and intended and as simple as He is.
As a "meta" comment: I guess that there is a scheme of discourse, or rather, many schemes, and some of the disagreement is related to the difference in schemes. HarleyD says the incarnate Jesus had hands, so we may say God has hands. I think in another scheme of discourse we would say something like an aspect of the mystery of the Incarnation is that the Divine hypostasis is united with the human hypostasis in one person - without a confusion of Substances/hypostases. That person, who was God, died. So we can say God died. But we can't say God was dead. That person, has parts, like hands. But since the two hypostases are not "confused" the Divine hypostasis does not have hands.
Yet, to make it worse, the so-called Athanasian creed says FWIW that the union of two hypostases in One Christ is done by "Taking up of Manhood into God"
At which point I say, "Honey, turn on the TV I want to watch Oprah, This stuff is too much for me."
All we can say is what God has revealed to us. God says He is love and creation testifies to this. God says He is wrath and history shows this. We see in a mirror darkly and accept these things on faith.
Well, I guess I have a dog in the fight anyway, because I'm in the "without parts or passions" school of thought. I do think that there is a different notion of what passion is. (Darn, you are making me WORK here! I HATE that!) In conversation about what God is (which should be preceded and followed by acts of humility) I mean by "passion" a movement of appetite or desire or revulsion. I don't think God has desires and appetites the way we do, or finds them interfering with His will the way we do.
Well, God created creatures with free will who brought sin into the world, disobeying that will.
It is God's will that 'none perish' and all be saved (1Tim.2:4) but that will not be accomplished because God gave mankind the ability to say no to Him and suffer the just consquences for those decisions.
God's desire is to share His perfect happiness, and in the end, that will be accomplished in the New Heavens and New Earth, where sin and death are forever removed.
But it took alot from God to accomplish it, the death of Christ on the Cross.
When I had sheep, some veterinary procedures in some cases were just impossible for me because the smells revolted me so much as to make me unable to act. I'd have to pay the vet (I SWEAR - only kidding - that man can't smell ANYTHING!) to do what I could not do. This is actually kind of related to your next disagreement with moi in #6015 God does not choose to be what He is, He is what He is because He is God. Thus, God doesn't choose to be Love, God is Love. To me that's a complete non-sequitur. I don't see how it's an argument. (I'm not putting it down, I'm revealing my incompetence)
Well, God doesn't acquire or grow in love, He is love, just as He is Truth and Eternal Life.
God can never be anything less then perfectly loving, honest and can never cease to exist.
On the other hand, here's how it looks to me: I am "stuck with" who and what and how I am. I can't grow taller, add to the hairs on my head, or do a whole lot about my innate disposition toward depression and so forth. Sometimes it's okay being Mad Dawg, sometimes not, but there's not much I can do about it. Pollyanna Rivanna Luxapalila Chincoteague Dot Org(andy) the cat doesn't even think about whether she wants to be a cat. But in God nothing is an accident. Nothing "happens" to God. He is not Stuck with anything. He is what He is and He chooses to be what he is. That's not so say He chose among options. "Hmm, shall I be a loving God, or should I do the Krang from the Pit thing? What to do, what to do?" But He wills everything including Himself. He IS a God of Love and He WILLS to be a God of Love.
Let me see if I can rephrase it a different way.
God is love, and that cannot change.
But God is also happy that He is God.
So, God's will and is being are always united as one.
God would never will (want) anything that would contradict what He is, nor would He want to.
That is what made the Cross necessary.
God's Love wanted to save sinful man, but God's Justice demanded payment.
God had to meet the requirements of His own perfect essence to accomplish what Love wanted.
God can never just ignore any aspect of His Divine essence.
So John 3:16 is His working out in history, in created time, in the sphere of mobility and mutability, of what He has always willed.
Yes, it precedes time in that God always knew it would happen, but it didn't have to happen.
God didn't have to create anything at all and certainly not man with free will.
[ However, immutability does not mean immobility.]
What is motion but a change in place with respect to time? What is mutability but the ability to change? It seems to me immutability means precisely immobility. How do we hack through this?
No, to be immutable simple means that God's essence is always consistent and in harmony.
One can count on God always being absolutely fair, truthful, loving, merciful, pitiful, kind, wise, and just.
No attribute will ever be compromised to accomplish what God wants to accomplish.
God is dynamic as is evident in the fact that He is the Creator and enjoys His Creation (Gen.1:31).
HarleyD quoth Have you considered that God could have a different type of these same attributes? For example God can love us with a godly love but that would not necessarily be the same as our humanly love. And I say the difference is that our love is shot through with "appetite", with "feelings", with passions. And it feels like it "happens to us". To the extent that it is chosen, it is will born along by passion, and often, sooner or later, will must slog on when the passions either quit or actively work against will. God's love is chosen and intended and as simple as He is. As a "meta" comment: I guess that there is a scheme of discourse, or rather, many schemes, and some of the disagreement is related to the difference in schemes. HarleyD says the incarnate Jesus had hands, so we may say God has hands. I think in another scheme of discourse we would say something like an aspect of the mystery of the Incarnation is that the Divine hypostasis is united with the human hypostasis in one person - without a confusion of Substances/hypostases. That person, who was God, died. So we can say God died. But we can't say God was dead. That person, has parts, like hands. But since the two hypostases are not "confused" the Divine hypostasis does not have hands. Yet, to make it worse, the so-called Athanasian creed says FWIW that the union of two hypostases in One Christ is done by "Taking up of Manhood into God" At which point I say, "Honey, turn on the TV I want to watch Oprah, This stuff is too much for me."
The problem lies in comparing our own failures to love with God's perfect love.
Yet, when you look at the Gospel accounts of Christ you see how man and should love.
When we are filled with the Holy Spirit we do love as God loves, with Charity.
It is when we are in the flesh, with our sinful lusts, that we stop loving as God loves and revert to acting like sinners, selfish.
As the Christian grows, the world ought to see God's love growing in him, as he is conformed to the image of Christ and that light shines forth, so all the world can see that the individual is truly a Christian.