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To: MHGinTN

I understand it perfectly. If you say you have faith, but you do not demonstrate it by works of love, then your faith is dead, worthless, no faith at all. Likewise, trying to do good works without faith is worthless. Your faith compels you to do go works. Your faith in God gives you the works your Father set out for you to do. Faith without works is dead, and works without faith is refuse, garbage, to God. Works do not save you, but works demonstrate the faith that you have.


5,994 posted on 09/11/2007 9:45:32 PM PDT by irishtenor (There is no "I" in team, but there are two in IDIOT.)
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To: irishtenor

What if you are not among the elect?

Am I right in saying that neither faith nor works will save you?


5,998 posted on 09/11/2007 9:51:35 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: irishtenor
You have stated a clear exposition of something more reasonable than James offered. Paul states that we are reconciled to God by faithe (action word, not a noun) not by keeping the law or by any works that we may do to add to what Jesus has alreaqdy done.

James, being a very devout Jew and leading the Jerusalem Church for 19 years trying desperately to reconcile Christianity to the Jewish Temple system, James states (2:24) 'Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only'. The preceeding verses James tried to give the examples of Abraham and Rahab, citing deeds (works) as fulfillemnt of their faith, and Jmaes tries to infer that the deeds are the focus of being saved, as if the deeds must show to complete faithe. But what were Rahab's works? Prostitution and lying when she hid the spies.

If you read the OT story, it was Rahab's faithe (action based upon belief in the promise sustained by confidence in the promiser) that when she let down the red cord she would be spared as the city fell.

With Abraham, James claims that Abraham offered his son and that work was counted for him righteousness. Yet in the OT story we have two clues greater than the knife glinting in the air: when Isaac asks where is the sacrifice to be offered, Abraham says 'God will provide'. Then, just before going up the mount to do the sacrifice, Abraham tells the servants to wait at the foot of the mount and 'they' will come back down to them ... even if Abraham had to offer Isaac, Abraham was so given to the 'amen' of God's promise that in Isaac would Abraham's seed be called that Abraham believed God would raise him from the dead if necessary to fulfill His promises. James used a crafty deceptive wording to defend his position that faith plus works was necessary for salvation.

6,002 posted on 09/11/2007 10:10:27 PM PDT by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support. Defend life support for others in the womb.)
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