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To: kosta50; MarkBsnr; irishtenor; hosepipe
You are not explaining anything either, FK. You are simply telling me "how" it is. That's the problem: it's a personal conviction, not absolute truth.

But isn't the only absolute truth for you whatever the Church says? You're asking me for something I don't have. My absolute truth is the scriptures, so we disagree on what the term even means. :)

FK: "For example, it sounds very much like you are saying that the mere act of creation puts an obligation on God to offer salvation to all."

You keep repeating this. No one ever puts any obligation on God.

Good, then please accept that it is not part of our theology. :)

Then your theology makes God ordain and desire evil.

Did God ordain and desire the evil of the crucifixion, or was Christ overwhelmed by the power of men?

FK: "Why is it impossible for God to simply leave people to their own sinful natures?"

If God controls and is the cause of their sinful nature then leaving them to their own sinful nature is an oxymoron in the context of your question.

God is the first cause of everything and Adam was the last cause of our sinful nature. There is no oxymoron here. Therefore, our sinful natures ARE our own and we are responsible.

Yeah, right, FK. The verse says God hardened Pharaoh's heart. It doesn't say God let Pharaoh exercise his sinful nature...

Both are true at the same time. God withdrew grace (or stopped supplying it) thus He "hardened". Pharaoh was then free to exercise his free will to even worse results.

5,778 posted on 09/09/2007 2:20:26 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper

“Did God ordain and desire the evil of the crucifixion, or was Christ overwhelmed by the power of men?”

God did what it took to ensure that salvation was available to all men, not just those who won the lottery. God, the omipotent and omniscient, is not about to be overwhelmed by His creations. I can hardly be overwhelmed by entries on my Palm Pilot, neither will God be overwhelmed by us.

If everything we do is from God, whether sinful or no, then we are in no way responsible. If I program my Palm Pilot to do something, it is not responsible for what I program. I am. If I program it to send up a balloon text at 8:23 am each morning with accompanying music saying that MarkBsnr is the most wonderful human being in the world, what kind of idiot would I be if I got disgusted with it and threw it into the garbage simply because it did what I programmed it to do?


5,779 posted on 09/09/2007 2:34:45 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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