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To: kosta50; MarkBsnr; irishtenor; hosepipe
If they don't believe (i.e. If they "experience" that they are rejecting Christ) it is by God's will and not their own according to the Reformed theology.

Everything that happens is by God's will, but not necessarily by God's last action. However, in the way you are framing the issue you merely assign this responsibility to God, on our behalf, but you do not explain how it works. What did God do to earn this responsibility? For example, it sounds very much like you are saying that the mere act of creation puts an obligation on God to offer salvation to all. Therefore, in your mind, if Reformers deny that God offers salvation to all, then God is responsible for all who are not saved. This hypothesis would match everything you have said so far. If this is true, then how do you make the connection between the act of creation and the responsibility you assign to God?

So, in reality, they are not rejecting Christ, but are forced by God to reject Christ ...

This confirms my hypothesis. The mistake you make here is in equating God's will with who does the action, and who is responsible for that action. Consider the alternative that you are defending, which is, that man thwarts God's will, or that God doesn't care enough to have a will. That would be a very weak God in my book.

If God is in control and we have no free will then God moves us and God makes our decisions; we are puppets and He is the puppet master.

No, you jump from God is in control directly to God forces us to do evil. That is a false conclusion. God is in control means He gets what He wants. People make their own decisions to sin, without His help. There is no nexus without a duty, and that is what I am asking you to explain.

All the strings are His. And what we do is strict obedience to God's will, no matter if it's good or evil.

As we discussed earlier, your use of the word would have the Cardinals "obeying" me if they come back to win the division. It is not the normal use of the word.

If God is always in control, then we can't do anything on our own, whether it's good or evil. The sin of omission is not an option here. Puppets on the string do nothing unless the puppet master pulls their strings.

And so your analogy fails. Why is it impossible for God to simply leave people to their own sinful natures?

But the Bible says that God specifically hardened the Pharaoh's heart so that he would not relent. So, it was not the Pharaoh's own decision, but God's. By this logic, Judas and Hitler were simply obedient God's servants.

No, this is your interpretation of scripture you already believe to be false on its face. Your interpretation is not consistent with any other scripture I can think of. However, my interpretation, which is that God left Pharaoh to his own sinful nature, knowing the result, IS consistent with other scripture such as:

Rom 6:23 : For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Wages are earned, not given out as a gift or curse. Pharaoh earned the consequences of his sin. Pharaoh was responsible. This is one reason why your view of us is incorrect.

5,608 posted on 09/07/2007 12:49:28 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper
Everything that happens is by God's will, but not necessarily by God's last action. However, in the way you are framing the issue you merely assign this responsibility to God, on our behalf, but you do not explain how it works

You are not explaining anything either, FK. You are simply telling me "how" it is. That's the problem: it's a personal conviction, not absolute truth.

For example, it sounds very much like you are saying that the mere act of creation puts an obligation on God to offer salvation to all

You keep repeating this. No one ever puts any obligation on God. The Bible says He came to save the world. You are telling me it says He came to save the elect. We are reading the same text and we are reading it differently.

God is responsible for all who are not saved

No, because Christ made it possible for the world to be saved. He fulfilled His promise. But that act doesn't force anyone to come to Him. The fact that so many choose to reject Him does not place an obligation on God. It places the responsibility on us (humans), and it also assures that those whom come to God come to Him on their own free will and are not forced or programmed into "loving" God.

No, you jump from God is in control directly to God forces us to do evil. That is a false conclusion. God is in control means He gets what He wants

Then your theology makes God ordain and desire evil.

People make their own decisions to sin

You keep repeating this like a robot, FK, no offense please. If God is in control then everything you do, including sinning, is by His will and not by yours. So, please don't bring "free will" here.

Consider the alternative that you are defending, which is, that man thwarts God's will, or that God doesn't care enough to have a will. That would be a very weak God in my book

We thwart His desire (that all men to be saved) when we sin. He allows it. Love must be free. Otherwise He is the author of sin.

And so your analogy fails. Why is it impossible for God to simply leave people to their own sinful natures?

If God controls and is the cause of their sinful nature then leaving them to their own sinful nature is an oxymoron in the context of your question. Remember: we are preprogrammed to every step. God programmed everything. he made the movie. No changes are possible. So, if you sin, it's because God assigned you to sin. If you go to hell it's because God "convicted" you before the movie even started.

No, this is your interpretation of scripture you already believe to be false on its face

Yeah, right, FK. The verse says God hardened Pharaoh's heart. It doesn't say God let Pharaoh exercise his sinful nature...

Wages are earned, not given out as a gift or curse

We earn our damnation because we choose to sin. When we choose to cleave to God and obey His will He saves us. Your theology actually invalidates both. In your (so-called Reformed) theology, God preordained everything to the "t" and all we do is just play our part in the movie. No one earns anything. It's all given.

5,627 posted on 09/07/2007 8:56:38 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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