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To: kosta50; MarkBsnr; kawaii; wmfights
You just asserted that you can't believe before the Spirit changes your heart. Then, how can you pray to Jesus before you believe?

First, I want to completely agree with WM's excellent reply to your post. Now, it is possible to pray to Jesus before formal surrender because the Holy Spirit does not instantaneously ZAP belief into us, in the vast majority of cases. It is a gradual process, the time of which varies among new believer to new believer. In my case, at one point, I really truly DID say a prayer along the following lines: "God, I don't know if you're up there, but if you are and if this "thing" is real, then could you just help me out a little bit". I PRAYED that before I accepted Christ. (In case anyone is wondering, my testimony is that God answered my prayer favorably. :)

Anyway, I remember the unknowing seed that was in my heart at that time like it was yesterday. I had NO CLUE what was happening or was going to happen. Yes, it's anecdotal, but it was very real to me, and I don't think I'm the only guy with a story like this. God was growing me to faith, and as is true for all of the elect, it worked.

Are you saying the HS just "sneaks up" on you and zapps you with a magic wand and then you start praying to Jesus to let the Spirit in. It sounds like some hypnotized, brainwashed robot, FK, who was turned into a believer without knowing it or wanting it.

Well, the one thing I can say for sure is that I wanted it when I prayed for Jesus to be the Lord of my life. I didn't experience any brainwashing, as I said the prayer alone in my room during high school, and no one was pushing me into it. The Holy Spirit DOES claim those who are of His elect. But if God just stays out of it, and watches from the sidelines, then I wonder what the experience is like for Apostolics. Or, does this even apply? Do Apostolics even ever formally invite Jesus into their lives in terms of a commitment that did not exist a minute ago, but after the prayer it did? I honestly don't know.

3,488 posted on 08/21/2007 1:55:13 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper; MarkBsnr; kawaii; wmfights
Yes, it's anecdotal, but it was very real to me

I don't doubt that for a minute, but that's where the argument ends.

3,506 posted on 08/21/2007 11:13:56 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Forest Keeper
But if God just stays out of it, and watches from the sidelines

Dunno why you keep to this illusion. Are these the only options you can conceive of: No such thing as free will or God stays out of it?

3,507 posted on 08/21/2007 11:22:06 AM PDT by D-fendr
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