What are you talking about? What good came out of being kicked out of the Garden? They lived in Paradise! Hellow? It 'just doesn't get much better than that! How can the consequence of the fall be good when the consequence meant permanent banishment from the ideal?
And just who are "all humans believers" in the Garden? I thought there were just two. You make it sound like there was a human 'community' of sorts.
For believers being cursed is only a temporary state
And all the suffering and death that came along...just temporary, thousands of years. Try telling this to those who don't have food to eat. It's only temporary...and then only if you believe.
Perhaps because he had no knowledge whatsoever of why he needed God. How can one love God if he doesn't understand his own need for Him?
So, do you let your kids go hungry and be cold just so they appreciate how good they have it? or do you banish them from the house for one "little thing" as you call it, along with all their generations.
We (and all believers since Adam) are better off now because we DO recognize our need for Him. That's one possibility anyway. :)
Next time you see a homeless man, why don't you tell him "Man, you have no idea how good it is that you know why you need God!"
OK, I can't come all the way there, but I like this a lot better than "cooperate"
Why not? Can you help an unwilling client? Would you say that your unwilling client is "not cooperating" or would you say "technically, he is not being synergistic? Same thing, FK. If we need help and want help, we better be willing to work with the expert who can help us. Because he won't compel us without our willingness to cooperate. If we refuse to be helped He won't force Himself on us.
We work with God's will, in obedience because of our will to do so. We decide at one point in our lives that God's will is more important than ours. We die unto the world and unto ourselves and give our lives to God as much as possible and turn into a monk or Mother Theresa. That is surrender willingly: you sell everything and you follow Christ.
But if you look at an ordinary person who continues earthly life, and is attached to earthly things, he continues in his fallen sickness and is in need of constant spiritual healing. The Church provides that through the Eucharist, confession and repentance. But in order for God to help us, we must cooperate with the Physician. We must come to Him. We must ask Him to heal us. We must obey His commandments. We must cooperate or be willing to be helped.
But when we speak of our relationship with God, then we speak of our servitude. We approach God as His servants. It is implicit that being His willing servants we are also willingly obeying Him as he heals us. At no time does he force His will against ours.
Paul would agree
Yes he would, but we are not enslaved by God. We can't serve two masters. So we must choose whom we shall serve.
My idea of paradise (or the ideal) would be anywhere where my heart was totally devoted to God. I loved Him completely with all my heart, mind, and soul, and I knew that He loved me too. It doesn't sound to me like Eden was such a place. Perhaps Adam and Eve DID develop such a relationship with God after they were kicked out. If they did, then their expulsion was good for them.
And just who are "all humans believers" in the Garden? I thought there were just two. You make it sound like there was a human 'community' of sorts.
I thought we were talking about the expulsion from the garden, as above, (so by "garden" I meant "garden incident") and I answered that the expulsion was good because God intended us to live our lives in this world in this way, so it is good by definition. My above expands a little on that answer.
FK: "For believers being cursed is only a temporary state."
And all the suffering and death that came along...just temporary, thousands of years.
Yes, actually. When compared to eternity with God in Heaven, all human suffering is really quite trivial.
Try telling this to those who don't have food to eat. It's only temporary...and then only if you believe.
Well, for the lost, their curse is eternally permanent, so I wouldn't try to tell them, if I could somehow know they were reprobate. But a believer surely can know that if he is saved, that whatever suffering he is enduring now will be no more in Heaven, and forever. That knowledge is EXACTLY what helps me through MY suffering, as pale as it is compared to many.
So, do you let your kids go hungry and be cold just so they appreciate how good they have it?
No, but I have made sure that they are aware of how many millions of children their age actually live in this world. In addition, when I discipline they are trained to know that if I get any lip that I will double it or worse. That is partly intended to show them to be grateful that they are only losing some, not all. I am a huge believer in the correct perspective on approaching life.
Next time you see a homeless man, why don't you tell him "Man, you have no idea how good it is that you know why you need God!"
Well, if the homeless man is a lost person, then you have to remember that God does not work for the good of him. He only works for the good of those who love Him. If the homeless man was a believer, and did not want to be homeless, then in this country anyway, I'm sure his church would have helped him out.
FK: "OK, I can't come all the way there, but I like this a lot better than "cooperate".
Why not? Can you help an unwilling client? Would you say that your unwilling client is "not cooperating" or would you say "technically, he is not being synergistic? Same thing, FK.
I don't think I can come all the way there because I don't think we are really in the position of a client or a patient. They can refuse, they have "rights", although the doctor or lawyer can still help them without cooperation. For example, in some cases a criminal defense attorney can use legal maneuvering to keep his client out of jail JUST BECAUSE he is not cooperating. (Competency hearings and such.) And, a doctor can pressure family members to get the patient to see reason. So, I like lawyer/doctor better because at least they are in a greater position of power (the expert, as you say) in the outcome of the situation vs. two "equals" bargaining (or cooperating) at arms length. In the original paradigm, God sounded to me more like a salesman than an expert.
But if you look at an ordinary person who continues earthly life, and is attached to earthly things, he continues in his fallen sickness and is in need of constant spiritual healing.
This sounds like someone who was never healed in the first place. Or, it sounds like his doctor didn't do a very good job. (Calling John Edwards!) :) When God DOES do the job, He does it right.
Yes [Paul would agree that we are slaves to Him], but we are not enslaved by God. We can't serve two masters. So we must choose whom we shall serve.
Who is the other party you are referring to and how does this relate to our station before God? The slave metaphor doesn't match your view because you are always free to declare yourselves no longer slaves any time you wish. Then if you want to become slaves to God again, all you do is confess, maybe some penance, and God automatically welcomes you back again. It never worked like this. Whether it was for a set number of years, or permanently, once you were a slave you were a slave. You were not free to change the relationship at your own whim.