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To: Forest Keeper; D-fendr; wmfights; Ping-Pong; xzins; stfassisi; Diego1618; P-Marlowe
Larry D. Pettegrew says "Scripture is clear, not mystical or hidden."

+Paul didn't think so: "and pray on my behalf, that utterance may be given to me in the opening of my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel"—Eph 6:19

Larry D. Pettegrew says "One of the qualifications of a pastor, in fact, is that he be 'able to teach' the Scriptures (1 Tim 3:2)," [never mind the fact that Timothy does noes advertise sola scriptura, so this quote is a non sequitur] and I ask Mr. Petergrew who determines that? Other pastors? How is that different from clergy that all Protestants despise?

So, now we need pastors in addition to sola scriptura?

Perspicuity comes from Latin, meaning to 'see through,' in other words transparent. To say that the Bible is perspicuous is to say that what's in the Bible is transparent, in other words, lucid, easily understandable.

in other words it's a fleeting ratrionalization that should require no qualifications or added requirements. The term is misleading as great minds clashed over its "perspicuity" with each seeing something different, even opposite in it. Thus, the Jews read the same Tanakh as the Protestants, yet they read different things in it.

Something that is clear, obvious, transparent, intelligible, should not lead to confusion or require someone to make it "more" clear for us. It's good to be able to teach, but why would one need to teach that which is obvious and clear as long as others can read? because it is neither clear nor free of mystery.

No, we will tell you that a child can understand the basics of God and salvation

No, a 5-year old does not know right from wrong and therefore cannot understand the basics of God and salvation.

2,502 posted on 08/14/2007 8:11:43 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; D-fendr; wmfights; Ping-Pong; xzins; stfassisi; Diego1618; P-Marlowe
Larry D. Pettegrew says "Scripture is clear, not mystical or hidden." +Paul didn't think so: "and pray on my behalf, that utterance may be given to me in the opening of my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel"—Eph 6:19

Yeah, but Paul was one of the main guys who MADE the Gospels clear IN SCRIPTURE. :) His prayer was answered favorably. Pettegrew also said that the scriptures were clear, but not all of them were necessarily simple.

Larry D. Pettegrew says "One of the qualifications of a pastor, in fact, is that he be 'able to teach' the Scriptures (1 Tim 3:2)," [never mind the fact that Timothy does not advertise sola scriptura, so this quote is a non sequitur] and I ask Mr. Pettegrew who determines that? Other pastors? How is that different from clergy that all Protestants despise? So, now we need pastors in addition to sola scriptura?

Perspicuity and Sola Scriptura are related but different concepts. Perspicuity goes to God's desire for man to be able to understand His actual word, and Sola Scriptura goes to the authority of that word.

I'm afraid I don't understand your line of questions here. I think Pettegrew was trying to say that perspicuity does not exclude the goodness and necessity of teachers. From the part I quoted, I don't even see him getting into Sola Scriptura.

Perspicuity comes from Latin, meaning to 'see through,' in other words transparent. To say that the Bible is perspicuous is to say that what's in the Bible is transparent, in other words, lucid, easily understandable.

For basic Christian principles, this definition is fitting. To any child of the age of reason, the Gospel truths concerning salvation, that we are all sinners, that we need Jesus to forgive us, that Jesus loves us and died for our sins, that we need to repent of our sins, and that we want Jesus to be our Lord and Savior ARE understandable, i.e. perspicuous. To say that the whole Bible is perspicuous would mean through the Holy Spirit's leading. In many cases that leading would be through human teachers.

The term is misleading as great minds clashed over its "perspicuity" with each seeing something different, even opposite in it. Thus, the Jews read the same Tanakh as the Protestants, yet they read different things in it.

The term is not misleading if taken in the light that those who believe in it take it. Believers are led by the Holy Spirit and the "Lord, Lord" crowd are not. To the latter, the Bible is in no way perspicuous, rather, it is nonsense. It is only perspicuous to believers.

It's good to be able to teach, but why would one need to teach that which is obvious and clear as long as others can read?

Pettegrew acknowledged this point in the part I quoted you. On non-core issues, he distinguishes between clear and simple. Clear means it IS there, and simple is how easy it is to find.

No, a 5-year old does not know right from wrong and therefore cannot understand the basics of God and salvation.

I have seen a couple of 5-year-olds express what I thought to be a saving faith, but clearly not all can. The issue is not to decide the age of reason, but to decide if the basics of salvation are understandable as portrayed in the Bible to any such person who has in God's eyes reached that age. I would say "Yes", absolutely.

2,550 posted on 08/16/2007 6:41:38 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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