Couple of things here: first the word of God (Bible) is not The Word of God (Logos), the Son of God, the pre-Incarnate eternal God and Savior of the world. Surely you don't believe the Bible is Jesus, the Incarnate Logos (even though it contains His words in the Old as well as the New Testaments) because that would be the ultimate in bibliolatry.
Second, God did not bring any distortions; the people who wrote, copied and recopied did. Just the fact that our Bibles contain commas is a corruption because, depending on where commas are located, verses can take on different meanings.
This is even more pronounced in the Old Testament with the rabbinical addition of vowels (last time I checked the good rabbis were not inspired). The Old Testament had neither punctuation marks, nor vowels. To illustrate, a "word" shp can be shape, ship, or shop. In Hebrew the verity is even greater.
We can be certain that the rabbis, in good faith I must add, wanted to make sure that no words in the Tanakh could be "misconstrued" as foreshadowing of Jesus Christ. So, I would say that while God did not, of course, put any corruption into his revealed truth, we did.
I take the eyewitness accounts of the Gospels as gospel, but remember that they were remembered from at least 30 years prior. Do you remember word for word conversations from 30 years ago?
I anticipated this question, and my answer is yes—if I repeated them every day, and I have no doubt that the Apostles repeated them every day. Remember, they preached the Gospels all along.
That's the inspired part
No that's what the Latins say: repetitio est mater studiorum (repetition is the mother of learning—and, we could say, of remembering!)
All of that is fine, so why then would you declare OT accounts as patently false on their faces because they appear to contradict the NT?
I don't think I am reaching you, FK. I said the Gospels tell us that the Jewish interpretations of the OT were sometimes false. The reason for that is that they didn't have full revelation yet. It's easy for us to go back and interpret everything according to the Gospels and say "aha, this makes sense," or "of course, this is prefiguring Christ..." etc. Thanks to the Gospels we now speak of a Triune God and the Jews are still in the dark. If that is not an indication that they did not fully receive God's revealed truth, nothing is!
We could almost liken our reading of the OT with someone receiving cheat codes for a video game. The "cheat codes" are in the Gospels.
Why would God SO mislead His chosen people?
God didn't mislead anybody! How long did it take to get Ten Commandments? How long did it take to get the whole Old Testament? The revelation was gradual. The Jews were not always receptive; rather they were disobedient and often reverting back to worshiping idols. There are numerous reasons why it took so long. It was not God's doing. At some point you have to give man some credit and say God allowed it!
Yes, I remember the conversation from one of the old big threads about big W and little w, so we have no problems here. :) My trusty NIV actually makes the distinction.
Second, God did not bring any distortions; the people who wrote, copied and recopied did. Just the fact that our Bibles contain commas is a corruption because, depending on where commas are located, verses can take on different meanings.
Well, if you think that the people who WROTE (IF you are referring to the original authors) did bring distortions, then you cannot believe the Bible is inerrant in any sense. I realize that the Church is there to provide clarity on what were some of any perceived distortions, but the Church hasn't ruled on everything yet. In fact, in Orthodoxy, I think you told me that the Church has ruled on very little in terms of volume. How can one know what is a distortion from an original author if the Church is yet silent on it?
I acknowledge that the issues of commas and vowels and the like are important and valid to raise. But in my opinion, just from a common sense privately owned vehicle :), I can't imagine God going to all the trouble He clearly did to put this thing together, only to let it all go to seed because of vowels and commas. I figure if God's going to do something, He's going to do it right. So, I am comfortable with assuming that God knew about and took care of those issues.
Sure, I have no problem with the idea that there are some flaws in the translation I use, but I still think I have everything I really need during my Christian walk, just as you do with your translation. I think God made sure of that.
FK: "Do you remember word for word conversations from 30 years ago?"
I anticipated this question, and my answer is yes—if I repeated them every day, and I have no doubt that the Apostles repeated them every day. Remember, they preached the Gospels all along.
Oh come now. :) All I'm trying to show is that God's hand was absolutely necessary to get it right. They couldn't have done it on their own. The Apostles spent what, about three years following Jesus around? Did they start collecting word-for-word quotes, (or whole speeches!), back during those times and repeating them every day? Of course not. Plus, as scripture says, there was plenty of other stuff that Jesus actually told them that never got any ink. Did they memorize all that instantly too? :) None of them had any clue they would later be writing Gospels at that time. It just isn't reasonable to say that all four of them accurately quoted all of Jesus' sayings that they related, between 30 and 60 years later with no divine intervention. If they knew the plan from the beginning and sat there with pencil and paper for all things, then I'd give you a "maybe", but they did none of it.
Think about it. If it was understood that your job was to instantly memorize everything I was going to say, and then I read you just the Sermon on the Mount for the first time, could you repeat it back to me word for word even a minute later? Of course not. I couldn't either. And we're educated men! :)
I don't think I am reaching you, FK. I said the Gospels tell us that the Jewish interpretations of the OT were sometimes false. The reason for that is that they didn't have full revelation yet.
And in other contexts I am saying the same thing. :) So, what were the correct interpretations from a Jewish perspective of all the OT stories about God killing, for example? It just seems impossible to me for these stories to have just materialized and been absorbed completely into the culture from utter nothingness. We have the genealogies, these were not tall tales that took place a long time ago in a galaxy far far away, etc. :) People were actually THERE, or they were not. They all either collectively lied from the beginning of their story or they did not. And this had to happen over and over and over again. Group lie after group lie after group lie. How is that possible? And why?
IIRC, you said one time that you think the OT was basically written all at once at a much later time than I think it was written (basically as it happened). Even if that is true, all the people of THAT time would have known if the stories coming out from the documents matched what they had been told all their lives. Brand new, wild stories never would have been accepted by the people.
The Jews were not always receptive; rather they were disobedient and often reverting back to worshiping idols. There are numerous reasons why it took so long. It was not God's doing. At some point you have to give man some credit and say God allowed it!
Yes, the OT tells us that the Jews were rebellious on many occasions, reverting back to idol worship, etc. The OT also tells us that God then exercised His wrath against them, specifically killing some in front of TONS of witnesses. How is it possible for these stories to have been passed down from generation to generation, and yet the real truth is that only half of it actually happened? Presumably, the point of God killing was to punish and show the whole people the error of their ways. But if that is all a lie because God never kills, as I suspect you contend, then why did the Jews actually change their ways toward good at any time? And, how did the Jews keep their lies hidden, since scripture says that God did much of His killing in front of many witnesses?