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To: kosta50; P-Marlowe; D-fendr; Ping-Pong; Marysecretary; MarkBsnr
Rom 8:28 : And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. [FK:] That includes letting the serpent into the garden.

No it doesn't. The verse says "those who love him." The serpent loved Him?

The verse says "WORKS FOR THE GOOD OF those who love him". God was not working FOR the good of the serpent when He let him into the garden. Look what happened to the serpent!!! :) Instead, even though it sounds counterintuitive, God was working for our good when He let the serpent in.

You are stuck on this faux "partnership" thing, which doesn't exist. We are not God's "partners." We are not even His "fellows," but servants.

Sounds good, but what is an innocent little outsider like me supposed to think? :) The operative and magic word used by many Apostolics around here is that we "COOPERATE" with God. In the normal use of the word, when I think of cooperate, I think of partner, even if an unequal partner, but partner nonetheless. Further, in your view, the "whatever" of man is absolutely necessary for salvation. That is more than just servitude, it is required cooperation (or whatever). Again, if it is required, then that signals a partnership.

As far as His plan is concerned, it can be based on two things: either we make decisions on our own and God knows them, or God makes those decisions for us (whether we know it or not). There is no other possibility.

For anything that matters to God's plan, God chooses the conditions and we follow our natures to the degree He allows. We make the decisions and pull the proverbial trigger. We are accountable.

In either case, God is in control through foreknowledge of our free will or through pre-progamming of our decisions.

How is God possibly in control if He totally defers to the whims of men to do anything they want. Knowing ahead of time there is going to be random anarchy, and refusing to do anything about it because man must control his own destiny, is NOT being in control. :)

Oh, by the way, if this is going to make you feel better: we had no say in how the Plan would work. God decided.

It would make me feel great if it was only true! :) If men have the power to direct God's plan in this direction or that direction because of his free will choices, then man absolutely has a say in how the plan will work. You have God working around our choices.

2,433 posted on 08/13/2007 8:24:44 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper

I’m gonna reply to your post just to clean my palate.

Why do you think free will results in random anarchy?


2,435 posted on 08/13/2007 8:38:03 PM PDT by D-fendr
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To: Forest Keeper; P-Marlowe; D-fendr; Ping-Pong; Marysecretary; MarkBsnr
The verse says "WORKS FOR THE GOOD OF those who love him". God was not working FOR the good of the serpent when He let him into the Garden

Precisely my point. What good came out of the garden for the serpent or the humans? So, it was not God's work.

even though it sounds counterintuitive, God was working for our good when He let the serpent in

Really? And just how did we benefit from going from being in Paradise to being cursed? Where is the "good" in it?

The operative and magic word used by many Apostolic around here is that we "COOPERATE" with God

Yes, that is a western construct and it is somewhat bogus, like the "fellowship." You and your lawyers are "fellows," partners so to say, not necessarily equal but partners nonetheless. 

The Greek word would be synergism, more like the patient-doctor relationship or perhaps even client-lawyer relationship. The doctor/lawyer is in charge, but you can't help an unwilling patient/client.

Eastern Orthodoxy actually only refers to us (faithful) as slaves/servants of God. In Greek it is doulos and in Slavonic it is ryab/rab.  In both cases, the word is obligate servant, bondsman, slave. The emphasis is on obligate and completely subordinate relationship to the master.

Thus, when receiving the Eucharist, a Deacon will call "Approach with the fear of God, faith, and love."  Those receiving Holy Communion will approach the cup and the priest will say:

"The servant of God (Name) receives the Body and Blood of Christ for forgiveness of sins and eternal life." 

The term (servant/slave) is also used during commemorative services (panikhidas/parastas). The priest reads:

O God of spirits, and of all flesh, Who hast trampled down death by death, and overthrown the Devil, and hast bestowed life upon Thy world: do Thou Thyself, O Lord, grant rest to the soul(s) of Thy departed servant(s), (name-s of the deceased), in a place of brightness, a place of verdure, a place of repose, whence all sickness, sorrow and sighing have fled away.

As the gracious God, Who lovest mankind, pardon every transgression which he (or she or they) has (or have) committed, whether by word, or deed, or thought. For Thou alone art without sin, and Thy righteousness is to all eternity, and Thy word is truth. For Thou art the Resurrection, and the Life, and the Repose of Thy departed servant(s) (name-s of the deceased). 

O Christ our God, and unto Thee we ascribe gory, together with Thy Father, Who is from everlasting, and Thine All-Holy, and Good and Life-Giving Spirit, now and ever, and unto ages of ages.

So, it is clear that we Orthodox do not form "fellowships" with God, but try to be His humble servants, giving ourselves and all our life to Him.

As we sing "Remembering our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary, with all the saints, let us commit ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God."

There is no confusing who is the master and who is the servant. An Orthodox faithful may not be well versed in Bible reading but, simply by attending the Divine Litirgy they will not think for one moment that somehow we are doing God a "favor." We are His servants because we gave up our will to Him and we come to Church to worship Him as our Lord and God, not our "fellow."

Knowing ahead of time there is going to be random anarchy, and refusing to do anything about it because man must control his own destiny, is NOT being in control

What random anarchy? Man controls his own destiny by either dying unto himself and giving his whole life and will to Christ, or by refusing God and choosing perdition. No matter how you look at it, we exercise our will, and God exercises His foreknowledge.

2,451 posted on 08/13/2007 10:53:10 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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