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To: D-fendr; wmfights; Ping-Pong; xzins; stfassisi; Diego1618; P-Marlowe
Isn’t it a Protestant Principle of some kind that scripture is capable of proper interpretation by a common reading - or something like that? Basically that there isn’t authority outside sola scriptura necessary to get the proper meaning

The fancy word is perspicuous. They will tell you even a 5-year-old can read the Bible and "understand."

In any case, isn’t this discussion a disproof of that principle?

Sola scriptura is just an ego-centric superstition.

2,408 posted on 08/13/2007 3:17:18 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; D-fendr; wmfights; Ping-Pong; xzins; stfassisi; Diego1618
Sola scriptura is just an ego-centric superstition.

Has the Pope spoken ex-cathedra on this issue?

I'm inclined to accept the Pope's interpretation (whatever it is - it can't be as weird as what we've seen here) over the interpretation of Pong and Diego.

2,409 posted on 08/13/2007 3:21:35 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: kosta50

Thanks for the info and the correct word.

I’m betting that even the most sola of all sola scripturalist would not claim that the Revelation of St. John the Divine is perspicuous.


2,411 posted on 08/13/2007 3:23:48 PM PDT by D-fendr
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To: kosta50; P-Marlowe
Sola scriptura is just an ego-centric superstition.

Aren't you the one who doesn't believe a real, historic Adam and Eve existed?

2,412 posted on 08/13/2007 3:24:30 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: kosta50; D-fendr; wmfights; Ping-Pong; xzins; stfassisi; Diego1618; P-Marlowe
The fancy word is perspicuous. They will tell you even a 5-year-old can read the Bible and "understand."

No, we will tell you that a child can understand the basics of God and salvation. You are overplaying how we use the word. For adults, the Bible being perspicuous means it is understandable with the leadership of the Holy Spirit. It is also important to know what the concept does NOT mean. I agree with this excerpt from THE PERSPICUITY OF SCRIPTURE by Larry D. Pettegrew (theology professor and Dean, Shepherd's Theological Seminary):

"What Perspicuity Does Not Mean -- In spite of what Scripture teaches about itself, it is still possible to misunderstand this doctrine, of course. So, what does this doctrine not mean, and what does it mean? First, perspicuity does not mean that all of Scripture is equally clear as to its precise meaning. The Second London Confession of Faith of the Baptists (1677, 1688), reflecting the Westminster Confession at this point, begins its statement on perspicuity: “All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all . . . .”9 The great church father, Chrysostom, compared Scripture to a river: “In one part there are whirlpools; and not in another,” he wrote. And he concludes, “Why then art thou bent on drowning thyself in the depths?”10

"Second, the doctrine of the perspicuity of Scripture does not mean that the teaching of Scripture is everywhere equally simple. There is a difference between clarity and simplicity. Scripture is clear, not mystical or hidden. But it often takes work to understand what the biblical authors meant in a certain passage. Commenting on Paul’s writings, the apostle Peter admits, “There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures” (2 Pet 3:16)."

"Third, perspicuity does not mean that interpretation, explanation, and exposition by a Bible teacher are never necessary. The New Testament speaks of the gift of teaching and the office of pastor-teacher. In Acts 8, Philip heard the Ethiopian eunuch reading Isaiah the prophet and asked him, “‘Do you understand what you are reading?’ And he said, ‘How can I, unless someone guides me?’ And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him” (Acts 8:30-31). Our Lord also explained Scripture to his disciples. After His resurrection, for example, He met some of His disciples on the Emmaus road. “And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself” (Luke 24:27)."

" Those heroes in church history who emphasized the doctrine of the perspicuity of Scripture never implied that the teaching ministry is unnecessary. The Reformers, for example, like Calvin and Luther, “wrote numerous exegetical and expository commentaries on the text, and discussed issues concerning the problem of biblical interpretation.”11 One of the qualifications of a pastor, in fact, is that he be “able to teach” the Scriptures (1 Tim 3:2). ...... Thus, perspicuity does not mean that interpretation, explanation, and exposition by a Bible teacher are never necessary. The Bible teaches that they are. ..."

.... So what does the doctrine of the perspicuity of Scriptures mean? First it means that Scripture is clear enough for the simplest person to live by. Scripture says, “The unfolding of your words gives light; it imparts understanding to the simple” (Ps 119:130). Wayne Grudem comments, “Here the ‘simple’ person (Heb. peti) is not merely one who lacks intellectual ability, but one who lacks sound judgment, who is prone to making mistakes, and who is easily led astray. God’s Word is so understandable, so clear, that even this kind of person is made wise by it.”14 Robert Reymond explains,"

For example, one does not need to be ‘learned,’ when reading the Gospels or hearing them read or proclaimed, to discover that they intend to teach that Jesus was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, performed mighty miracles, died on the cross ‘as a ransom for many,’ and rose from the dead on the third day after death. These things are plain, lying on the very face of the Gospels.15"

--------------------

It goes on, but hopefully you get the picture. The idea is to dispel the myth that ONLY men in ivory towers are qualified to interpret the scripture for us. Teachers are good, the scripture is self-contained, all scripture is "clear" and the basics are also "simple", and the Spirit does lead all of us. The doctrine of perspicuity seems to me to be a natural outgrowth of the realization that a growing number of the interpretations of scripture made by the Magisterium simply bore no resemblance to the actual texts. If the Bible was in truth an indecipherable code book, then the Magisterium could maintain its place of preeminence. Therefore, that is how it was marketed, even to this day. The doctrine of perspicuity says that this is simply not the case. Rather, that the Bible was instead meant to be read and understood by all Christians, not just a few.

2,500 posted on 08/14/2007 5:12:30 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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