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then by allowing people to be born whom he knows will never do the right thing

P-Marlowe raises a valid argument here, imo. Why would God create (or has pre-destined) someone knowing that he or she will never do the right thing?

For whatever its' worth, then why did He create Adam and Eve and make everything good, knowing it would turn sour? And why did He create the world knowing that mankind would turn so wicked that He would have to drown all but a few? Or why was the Serpent in the Garden, or why does He allow evil if everything has been predestined...what good are prayers when they can't change what has been predetermined before the foundations of the world, etc., etc.

You raise a good question, but my only objection to this is that predestination doesn't answer these questions either. It avoids them.

In fact, predestination makes salvation an illusion as well. Before they were even guilty, they were destined for "salvation?" Salvation from what? You are pardoned before you have committed a crime?

What is the point of speaking of sin if all we do is what we have been pre-programmed to do? Then the evil ones are evil because God made them evil? Dioesn't it follow that he who does evil is evil himself? Does that mean that God is sometimes good and sometimes evil? Or does it mean that, since God is always sovereign and good, even the evil is good? If so, then why are the evil ones not saved as well? After all, they were predestined to be evil and are evil for no fault of their own, right?

Are we not going through empty rituals by praying and preaching and baptizing, if everything has been predetermined? Why then the Great Commission? Those who will become Christian will do so of no effort of their own, whether we preach to them or not.

It's like a movie. The end will not change regardless what you are doing in the theater or even if you are watching the movie. So what we do in the movie changes nothing; its meaningless whether we sleep, talk, pray, behave, misbehave, or whatever. You don't even have to be in the movie theter or even know the movie exists; the movie will end the way it was choregraphed to end.

That makes our existence and what we do completely menaingless.If nothing we do can change then why are we doing it? Predestination is like lobotomizing everything we do, think and believe.

The end of the world will come suddenly and unpredictably, as Jesus said (in His human nature), and the hour is known but to the Father. What we will see in the sky will be the fiery furnace of a crashing asteroid that came from behind the Sun and was not detectable. That can happen at any moment, as the Bible warns. And we should be prepared.

We have already had near misses with such bodies (two of them) in the last couple of years. The trajectory of collision is the only predetermined certainty known but to God. Our state of souls is a matter of our choice. We will not alter the fate of the world, but will affect how we are judged.

My friend; the movie analogy is excellent.

Predeterminism removes all responsibility from the individual. And I still cannot imagine, given my understanding of Scripture, why God would create individuals in order to toss them into hell. The verses selected for defense of this doctrine are pretty weak and unconnected.

You raise a good question, but my only objection to this is that predestination doesn't answer these questions either. It avoids them.

Whether predestination answers the questions or avoids the questions is irrelevant to the issue of whether or not we are predestined. We are. Unless God has no idea what is going to happen tomorrow, we are all predestined by no other reason than by the omniscience of God.

In fact, predestination makes salvation an illusion as well. Before they were even guilty, they were destined for "salvation?

Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. (Jeremiah 1:4-5 KJV)

Are we not going through empty rituals by praying and preaching and baptizing, if everything has been predetermined? Why then the Great Commission? Those who will become Christian will do so of no effort of their own, whether we preach to them or not.

If we are not called to preach to them, then perhaps they are not predestined to eternal life. If we do not baptize them, then perhaps they were not predestined to eternal life. God has called us all to preach the gospel to everyone. If we do not do so, then perhaps we are not called to eternal life.

For whatever its' worth, then why did He create Adam and Eve and make everything good, knowing it would turn sour? And why did He create the world knowing that mankind would turn so wicked that He would have to drown all but a few? Or why was the Serpent in the Garden, or why does He allow evil if everything has been predestined.

I don't know.

..what good are prayers when they can't change what has been predetermined before the foundations of the world, etc., etc.

we are told that the fervent effectual prayer of a righteous man availeth much. Our prayers do change things on a temporal level, but God knew from the foundation of the earth whether you would pray that prayer and whether or not he would answer it. In that sense your prayer was as predestined as God's answer to it.

why did He create Adam and Eve and make everything good, knowing it would turn sour? And why did He create the world knowing that mankind would turn so wicked that He would have to drown all but a few?

In Genesis 6:6 God repents or regrets that He made man and decides to do away with him. Later, He changes His mind.

We know these involve anthropomorphisms, yet they are descriptive of something, perhaps that evidence of this paradox goes way back to the beginning of our tussle with God.

It's said that truly transcendent truth statements reduced to logic appear as a paradox. I think this question may be an illustration of that.

[.. P-Marlowe raises a valid argument here, imo. Why would God create (or has pre-destined) someone knowing that he or she will never do the right thing? ..]

So they can prove "it" to themselves..

P-Marlowe raises a valid argument here, imo. Why would God create (or has pre-destined) someone knowing that he or she will never do the right thing?

They are predestined, justified and glorified because of what they have already done. There was an age before the one we are now in. That was the age in which Satan fell, taking many of God's children with him. The elect stood against him then and that is why they are The Elect. They earned it.

For whatever its' worth, then why did He create Adam and Eve and make everything good, knowing it would turn sour? And why did He create the world knowing that mankind would turn so wicked that He would have to drown all but a few? Or why was the Serpent in the Garden, or why does He allow evil if everything has been predestined...what good are prayers when they can't change what has been predetermined before the foundations of the world, etc., etc.

He created this 2nd age to give mankind another chance to follow God. Everything, or everyone, has not been predestined. They have a choice to make.

What is the point of speaking of sin if all we do is what we have been pre-programmed to do? Then the evil ones are evil because God made them evil?

Only the elect can be moved around by God. He works in their lives to put them where they need to be and do what He wants them to do. Those of free will must ask Him to have that control over their life. Forrest Keeper, do you remember that I asked you if you ever felt "led" by God, did things ever happen in your life that could in no way be a coincidence? That is what I was talking about.

I don't think we are pre-programmed but we are going to fulfill His plan. He doesn't "make" anyone evil. They choose that themselves.

Why then the Great Commission? Those who will become Christian will do so of no effort of their own, whether we preach to them or not.

Our job is to teach His Word and He will open the eyes and ears of those that are meant to be. The others, because of what was done in the first age, must choose Him on their own - free will.

It's like a movie. The end will not change regardless what you are doing in the theater or even if you are watching the movie. So what we do in the movie changes nothing; its meaningless whether we sleep, talk, pray, behave, misbehave, or whatever.

Only if you are an elect. They/we are here to show the way to the others.

That makes our existence and what we do completely menaingless.If nothing we do can change then why are we doing it?

We can make a difference by bringing His Word to others. They are NOT predestined. Our job, our destiny as a Christian is to do that. God put me where I needed to be to hear what I needed to hear at the right time to know I am a child of God. He can use us to do that for others.

We have already had near misses with such bodies (two of them) in the last couple of years. The trajectory of collision is the only predetermined certainty known but to God.

As God is coming to earth He will not allow that to happen:

2Peter 3:10.But the day of the Lord, will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
13.Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

The "heavens and earth" that pass away are the 2nd heaven and earth AGE, not the actual earth. All that is "burned up" are the evil rudiments. Then, we go into our 3rd age - eternity.

At least that's the way I understand it........Ping

[Kosta to Marlowe:] You raise a good question, but my only objection to this is that predestination doesn't answer these questions either. It avoids them.

Predestination was never designed to answer the good questions YOU asked about why God would give us a world full of sin, as He did. It simply served His purpose "somehow". Predestination just tells us THAT God did something, not WHY He did it.

In fact, predestination makes salvation an illusion as well. Before they were even guilty, they were destined for "salvation?" Salvation from what? You are pardoned before you have committed a crime?

Of course. :) This is well documented:

MINORITY REPORT - PRE CRIME UNIT

What is the point of speaking of sin if all we do is what we have been pre-programmed to do?

But if we never experience the difference, what is the point of questioning it? How do we escape that God knows everything we are ever going to do, good and bad? Here, it doesn't matter at all whether God causes it or we cause it, all that matters is whether we are aware of the difference, and we never will be in terms of experience. You and I have different views of how this works, but the reality is that when each of us does a good thing, we experience it exactly the same way. Therefore, there is always a point to doing the deeds, and saying the prayers, etc. This was God's design.

In addition to that, we have God's commands, which do not need to justify themselves. They are reason enough alone.

It's like a movie. The end will not change regardless what you are doing in the theater or even if you are watching the movie.

Only God knows it's a movie. For us, we are acting in an improvisational play.

That makes our existence and what we do completely meaningless. If nothing we do can change then why are we doing it? Predestination is like lobotomizing everything we do, think and believe.

Change is a big part of all of our lives. We just don't know the BOUNDARIES of change that God will allow or cause. Given our limited understanding, and the reality that we do experience, consider what it was like for Jesus, who DID know all the answers to everything while He walked the earth. He would have been the KING of all "lobotomy cases" under what I think you are trying to say. Yet, He went through it. I don't think He's asking too much of us to do the same, given that we have no knowledge and everything is new to us.