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To: kosta50; MarkBsnr
Then you do not believe that God is the cause of everything and all.

God is the FIRST cause of everything, but not always the last. Sin comes from those God already created, not from God Himself.

Humanity fell from grace because man chose to sin. It is a consequence of abused freedom. When we abuse freedom we lose it. Now we are not free but slaves to sin.

Yes, exactly.

God gave man freedom to choose. When one chooses, one can choose God or sin.

Everyone is free to sin at birth. God then gives some the freedom to choose Him, and they always do.

If everything we do is God's will, then we have no will of our own and we are back to robots.

Nah, we'd be back to man having the power to thwart the will of God. Man has a will, it is just under God's authority.

If God preordained those who will be saved and those who will perish before they even existed, then their sinning is only a charade, because the "reprobate" have been convicted before they sinned and the "saved" have been pardoned before they were born. Their actual acts of sin are irrelevant and do not affect the outcome.

The outcome concerning their destiny doesn't change, but the acts of men certainly DO affect the unfolding of history on earth. It is all part of God's plan so it does have meaning.

Reformed theology makes the sacrifice on the Cross a "ritual" like some theatrical scene.

You make it sound like God wasn't sure whether to go through with it until the last minute. No, the cross was ordained and had to be carried out within time, so it was.

That's why prayers are simply "obedience" show, since they change nothing in this mindset.

Prayers certainly change things in OUR mindsets, but not in God's. The all powerful Reformed God is perfect, so He doesn't need to change His mind.

11,366 posted on 11/25/2007 2:47:10 PM PST by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper; MarkBsnr
God is the FIRST cause of everything, but not always the last. Sin comes from those God already created, not from God Himself

But in the Reformed theology even the second, third, nth cause is by God's will. So, whatever happens is accoridng to His will which we cannot resist. That makes our decisions His decisions, and therefore when we sin we sin because God willed it. That makes God the author of our sin. If we have no free will (the core belief of the Reformed theology) then it is someone else's—God's!

11,370 posted on 11/25/2007 5:48:03 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Forest Keeper; MarkBsnr
Everyone is free to sin at birth. God then gives some the freedom to choose Him, and they always do

No. There are those who fall away.

Nah, we'd be back to man having the power to thwart the will of God. Man has a will, it is just under God's authority.

God's will is that we are free to choose. God gave us wide freedom, but not limitless freedom. If we are free we are not thwarting God's will, but fulfilling it.

Since the Resurrection, mankind is free to accept or reject God's offer of slavation.

You make it sound like God wasn't sure whether to go through with it until the last minute

Well, if God predestined everyone to either heaven or hell before the foundation of the world, the Crucifixion did not save the world, since the "elect" were already saved.

Prayers certainly change things in OUR mindsets, but not in God's

So, why did Jesus pray?

11,372 posted on 11/25/2007 5:56:32 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Forest Keeper
Do you believe that God could have preordained any of your sins? I know for a fact that God did not preordain any of my sins. I know He always leaned on my heart to avoid sin.The decision is always mine to disappoint Him when I sin.He presses hard on us not sin,but never forces us.
11,375 posted on 11/25/2007 6:12:06 PM PST by stfassisi ("Above all gifts that Christ gives his beloved is that of overcoming self"St Francis Assisi)
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