Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
I have read your verse and I have posted a verse to show that the only thing that was asenine is the verse you referenced.
My Dear Brother....Would you make this same statement if you inserted the Name of "Jesus" instead of the word "Him".
Thus it would read... The fact that the vast majority of them get run over and die doesn't seem to bother "Jesus" at all.
Please think deeply on this Dear Friend.
"and whoever lives and believes in me will never die" [John 11:26]
What Messiah? Jesus who?
The minute you begin answering those questions you are engaging in a theological discussion.
NOTE: I no longer post to Frumanchu, so this explains absence of his name in this reply.
Actually, the Jews (and Protestants) hold that the Torah was dictated to Moses by God just as Mohammad claimed the Koran was.
The Reformed further hold that all scripture was written by God by some mind-control mechanism (divine tractor beam of sorts), where God took over the minds of biblcal authors and used their hands to write the rest of the Bible (their view on inspiration), especially when ti comes to St. Paul.
Furthermore, many Protestants confuse the Word (Logos), with the "word of God" (bible), treating them as one and the same.
First, don't quote St. Paul to me, please, because he alone is not Christianity. Second, because the Protestant interpretation of St. Paul is inconsistent with the way the original Church understood it.
Third, do not offer me the Westminster Confession as any source of any truth. If the Reformed are true Christians they should be able to defend their beliefs based on the early Church, the Creed, as well as on the Gospels, through which all the rest of the New Testament and Old Testament attains full meaning, all of which are interconnected and inseparable.
Fourth, the Reformed Calvinist theology states that God has doubly pre-ordained everything, and that nothing can change His perfect Plan. That means no amount of prayer either. Which means this "movie" has an end and no amount of prayer will change it.
Fifth, if the bible tells us that we should pray (and biblical instances of prayer are always supplications for change of God's mind in the name of mercy) it is because God can and does change the course as we go along. We call that God's intercessions. Those don't change the big picture but they can save another soul and bring it to God.
So, not everything is predestined and set in stone. God's mercy changes and adds blessings (Isa 38:5) which result in changes in our lives.
I am sure that there will be persistent unbelievers who will call Jesus "Lord" and will claim to done great things in His name ... certainly once they see that the tide has turned against them.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?Mat 7:22
Are you saying this is spoken to atheists and those who actively reject Jesus as the Christ? I don't think so, brother! Jesus is clearly correcting those who only HEAR the Gospel and do not OBEY it. Faith without works is dead. This has nothing to do with pagans, but rather, the self-righteous who think they are already going to eternal glory just by hearing the Gospel.
I don't think that you considering the fulness of the statements made by Jesus here.
Those that Jesus addresses are those which claim to have done works ... and Jesus says ... I never knew you.
He doesn't say ... you have heard the gospel, but haven't produced enough works.
He says ... I never knew you.
This isn't about works.
If we trust Jesus to know what He is saying ... He can't be speaking to anyone who has ever been a believer, for He says ... I never knew you.
According to what Jesus says here, ... he can't be speaking to those who once believed, because He says ... I never knew you.
Those to whom He speaks may be self-righteous, but they have to be the self-righteous who have have never come to Jesus, because He says ... I never knew you.
And isn't this the group that Jesus had the most trouble with in every case ... the Pharisees, the Scribes, the experts in the Jewish law, ... who saw themselves as having their own righteousness, ... and who looked down their noses at Jesus ?
Isn't this the group who, today, is in the most peril of missing the salvation of God ... those who think that they have no need of Jesus ?
To obey the gospel ... is to believe it ... and to come to know Jesus.John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?Once we believe the gospel, Jesus knows us ... because we enter into fellowship with Him.
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.He could never say unto us, his children ... I never knew you.
I stand ready!
The Eastern Orthodox Bible must be very short, considering it dismisses much of the OT and now all of Paul.
Christianity-lite.
do not offer me the Westminster Confession
I didn't. I offered you Scripture. But I can understand your getting the two confused since every word of the WCF is founded on God's word.
So, not everything is predestined and set in stone.
At the moment of creation, did God foreknow all that was to be, even the course corrections of men and their outcomes?
Or is He just making it up as He goes along?
"That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been" -- Ecclesiastes 3:15"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure" -- Isaiah 46:10
If I can’t post to you, please do me the same favor.
Sorry I had to post this to you inspite of your request for me not to post to you.
” Actually, the Jews (and Protestants) hold that the Torah was dictated to Moses by God just as Mohammad claimed the Koran was.
The Reformed further hold that all scripture was written by God by some mind-control mechanism (divine tractor beam of sorts), where God took over the minds of biblcal authors and used their hands to write the rest of the Bible (their view on inspiration), especially when ti comes to St. Paul.”
Really?????????????? Well, I suppose it has been worth spending so much time here as I see I can learn something everyday.
Kosta, with that thoroughly heretical view of scripture, we Orthodox can never find common ground with these people. +John Chrysostomos was right!
“If anyone believes that Christianity is a religion of revelation, then it strikes me as odd that people rely on themselves to decide what this revelation is.”
Everyone who reads the scriptures or hears a sermon interprets what they are hearing based on their experience, education and genetics. that’s why when you read a passage or hear a different sermon on the same passage, something new comes out of it, even hearing the same sermon over again.
Acts 2:6-8, “Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?”
The words in the different languages of these people have different meaning and import just as we have been debating here on the eastern/western/Greek/English translations. they had to interpret their meaning.
Don't quote Isaiah because Isaiah never existed. And don't quote Solomon because Solomon never existed. And don't quote John because John was misquoted. And don't quote.... period.
You forgot the first five books of the Bible, and of course Joshua can’t be trusted, what with that walls of Jericho lie. About the only thing that can be trusted is portions of John 10, Luke 1 and Matthew 16. All else is suspect.
The Syriac Peshitta reads:
“Because God knew in advance that the Gentiles would be declared righteous through faith, He first preached to Abraham, as it is said in the Holy Scriptures, “In you shall all the gentiles be blessed.”
I’m inclined to agree with Gill on this passage that the Syriac has it right.
I apologize sincerely. I did not post directly TO you and didn’t see your name. I simply copied the “To” list. Censoring such “TO” lists every time I respond is tedius but I will do my best.
No worries, mate. If we could start over, I’ll try to be less testy.
FK, care to comment on this? I am getting the impression that there are "gradations" among the Reformed and that not all Reformed are equally Reformed so to say. Your stance has always been absolute and unquestionable assurance. How do you comment on the Reformed statement above, challenging your claim?
Actually, God's honest truth is that I fully intended to comment on Mark's original post when I came across it. Then I hit "view replies" and saw that Fru handled it perfectly so there was no need. :)
Every true believer from any Christian faith has the ability to know and be sure of his salvation. However, apprehending that knowledge is irrelevant to the FACT of the salvation. I would imagine that most Calvinists have apprehended that knowledge, and that most Apostolics have not. But this has nothing to do with how many Calvinists or Apostolics there are in Heaven. :) That was decided long before there WERE any Calvinists or Apostolics. :)
All this is to say, and as my recent conversation with Joe will confirm, that my position is that I say that I have assurance to the extent a human can. I know my heart and I know God's promises. Based on that knowledge, I claim to be saved. As Fru has said, therefore I deduce that I am of the elect. However, I do NOT claim Divine knowledge on the subject. Only God has the truth that can be called absolute.
Amen, great post.
To God be the glory!
apparently so.
Regards
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