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Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years? (Challenge to Apostolicity)
Progressive Theology ^ | July 07

Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins

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To: MarkBsnr; Dr. Eckleburg; kosta50
Our beliefs in original sin and hell are aligned.

Wow, that's interesting...

I would refer you to the Orthodox websites contrasting the Orthodox and Roman Catholic views on original sin and hell. The Roman Catholics are simply moving away from their doctrine to a more Orthodox position on original sin. The Orthodox does not see people as tainted whereas the Catholics do. You can't be both.

I would also call kosta attention to the Orthodox position. I believe Dr. Eckleburg stated that the Orthodox do not believe in hell. For all practical purposes, she is correct. The Orthodox look at hell as simply a place people go to be refined for heaven. Hence, presumably no one really stays in hell. This is somewhat similar to the Catholic view of purgatory but in the Catholic view, unlike the Orthodox view, there are some who never leave.

8,001 posted on 10/02/2007 4:28:20 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: wmfights
FWIW, one verse comes to mind. Roms. 5:17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one (Adam), much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the one, Jesus Christ.

Amen. Thanks. :)

8,002 posted on 10/02/2007 4:37:23 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper
Yes, we would never say "condescend TO", we would say "condescend in front of" or before. I think that is a big difference.

I am not theologically adroit enough to figure out the difference. All I know is that God "stooped" to our level, even below "our" level by accepting all of our trials and hardships with the exception of sin. I think this is part of our ('apostolics') idea of who God is. We analogously consider Him as acting as we would with our wives or the ones we love. We sometimes ALSO "condescend to" or "in front of" or whatever.

Those who have teenagers will know EXACTLY what I am talking about!!!

Thanks for the explanation on "apostolics". I didn't think YOU meant it pejoratively.

He doesn't inspire here with Divine inerrancy, however, where do you think the knowledge comes from anyway?

I understand your desire to point that out, but we already know that EVERY good gift comes from above. There is certainly no attempt to brag about something that was given to us. The point is that God condescends to our level of human knowledge regarding science, for example.

I guess you could compare it to "baby talk" that we conduct with a two-year old. We want to communicate with the child our love and affection, but we want to be understood. Thus, we don't overanalyze and speak philosophically.

Clearly there was first a plan, and parts of it were later recorded in scriptures. Everything was already ordained before any words ever appeared on a page.

There seems to be a "school of thought" among some Protesants that the Scriptures dictate to God what must be done. Thus, the Incarnation MUST have happened. Rather than a free-will choice to show His immense love for mankind, the Incarnation is a sterile part of the "PLAN" that is executed grudgingly. Those who think this way miss out on the "WHY" God became man.

Regards

8,003 posted on 10/02/2007 4:44:00 PM PDT by jo kus
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To: HarleyD; kosta50

On original or inherited sin, t’s a difference in “guilt”. The disease model is used in the West as well as the East. Both West and East teach Hell as a state rather than a “place”.

I’ll let Kosta address your Purgatory=Hell, if he wishes.

Regardless, we are one church.


8,004 posted on 10/02/2007 4:46:57 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: Forest Keeper
God's ways are not our ways. I also note that you are putting your money on His omniscience INSTEAD of His omnipotence. This of course erases the concept of God even having a plan. God just watches the events of human history, then snaps His fingers and says: "Yep, that's my plan"! :) This isn't God's plan at all, it is God simply signing off on whatever man decides for himself.

Must I "council" you again on God and time? :-) You are putting God on a timeline again.

Remember, God is infinite. In infinity, there is no difference between "omnipotence" and "omniscience". Such things are immeasurable. There is no 'lesser' or 'greater' or focusing on one aspect over another in God.

Now to rattle your pickle...

Every point on an infinite line is the same point! Think about it.

I think this short lesson on "infinity" can help us to understand how God can allow Man's Free Will and His Sovereignty to co-exist without one overriding the other...

Nicholas of Cusa wrote some interesting stuff on comparing God and infinity to Geometry...

Regards

8,005 posted on 10/02/2007 4:51:59 PM PDT by jo kus
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To: D-fendr; kosta50
Both West and East teach Hell as a state rather than a “place”.

Hmmm...that's not what NewAdvent teaches.

NewAdvent, the scriptures, the Fathers and the Creeds all indicates hell is far more than a "state".
8,006 posted on 10/02/2007 5:07:32 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: jo kus; Forest Keeper
God can allow Man's Free Will and His Sovereignty to co-exist without one overriding the other

Are you suggesting that "Man's Free Will" (notice the Capital letters) is on a par equal to "His Sovereignty"? (also in Capital letters)

8,007 posted on 10/02/2007 5:14:09 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: HarleyD; kosta50

The idea of “place” connotes corporeal, specific location in time and space. I don’t think even Protestants theologians would agree with this attributes for Hell. So any use of “place” in describing Hell would have involve differences.

As far back as St. Acquinas:
“Incorporeal things are not in place after a manner known and familiar to us, in which way we say that bodies are properly in place; but they are in place after a manner befitting spiritual substances, a manner that cannot be fully manifest to us.” [St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, Supplement, Q69, a1, reply 1]

And as recent as Pope John Paul II:
“In a theological sense however, hell is something else: it is the ultimate consequence of sin itself, which turns against the person who committed it. It is the state of those who definitively reject the Father’s mercy, even at the last moment of their life...

“Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy. This is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes the truths of faith on this subject: “To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called ‘hell’”


8,008 posted on 10/02/2007 5:21:12 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: MarkBsnr

Sorry, you should have been pinged to 8,008 and above which was continuation off a post of yours.

Apologies...


8,009 posted on 10/02/2007 5:44:13 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

***Which Calvinist on this forum do you think is not preaching loudly enough? 8~)***

Must be me. I’ll try to use all caps from now on.

IS THIS BETTER? :>)


8,010 posted on 10/02/2007 6:10:44 PM PDT by irishtenor (Presbyterianism is pure Christianity.)
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To: jo kus

It is a hard concept.


8,011 posted on 10/02/2007 8:02:33 PM PDT by tiki
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To: HarleyD; MarkBsnr; Dr. Eckleburg
I would also call kosta attention to the Orthodox position. The Orthodox look at hell as simply a place people go to be refined for heaven. Hence, presumably no one really stays in hell. This is somewhat similar to the Catholic view of purgatory but in the Catholic view, unlike the Orthodox view, there are some who never leave

FWIW, I have promised myself to be nicer to Protestants as it pains me that we are so far apart.

Second,

I believe Dr. Eckleburg stated that the Orthodox do not believe in hell. For all practical purposes, she is correct

Regrettably, she is not.

The Orthodox look at hell as simply a place people go to be refined for heaven. Hence, presumably no one really stays in hell

That is not correct either. The Orthodox position is very clear: when a person dies, his soul is separated from his body. At that point, the soul is judged, for it is "appointed for man to die once and then the judgment." [Heb 9:27] At that point, also the soul knows if it is destined to hell or heaven. But the souls will not be in either until it is reunited with the body at the Second Coming.

The Greeks also believe, that until the union of the souls to the bodies, as the souls of sinners do not suffer full punishment, so also those of the saints do not enjoy entire bliss

That is strange, but coming from Bessarion, perhaps not so. A little historical background explains why:

As his return to Greece, he found himself bitterly resented for his attachment to the minority party that saw no difficulty in a reconciliation of the two churches. At the Council of Florence, held in Ferrarra and then Florence, Bessarion supported the Roman church and gained the favour of Pope Eugene IV, who invested him with the rank of cardinal at a consistory of 18 December 1439. (Wikipedia)

The truth is the Orthodox very much believe that the saints (Mary, and others) are in heaven. We do not believe that all saved are yet, because they have died with some unrepentant sin. And neither are the unrepentant in hell yet.

It was St. Gregory of Nyssa, a student of Origen, who for a while taught false doctrine of universal salvation. But the Orthodox Church never accepted such a doctrine and +Gregory of Nyssa stopped teaching it at some point.

Other than that, it's good that you are consulting Orthodoxinfo.com, just be careful not to jump to any conclusions based on the writings of any isolated bishop.

8,012 posted on 10/02/2007 8:55:29 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: jo kus; Forest Keeper; Dr. Eckleburg
Just a quick comment for the discussion.

The word infinity comes from the Latin infinitas or "unboundedness."

And in mathematics, infinity is an unbounded quantity that is greater than every real number.

Eternity – or infinite time – is time without end, without boundary. Time counts, but without end.

Time is geometric. In our perceptible universe, there are four dimensions, three of space and one of time. But there may likely be additional dimensions, either spatial or temporal.

Moreover, space/time is part of the Creation and not a property of the Creator.

Therefore, the term “timeless” would be more appropriate in meditating on God the Creator.

Or as a physicist around here grudgingly admitted after observing that there had to be a beginning of real space and real time for there to be any causality at all - “existence exists” LOL!

In Nicholas of Cusa's day most everyone believed in a steady state universe. Indeed, the insight that there was a real beginning of space and time came from the measurement of cosmic microwave background radiation in the 1960's. It was the most theological statement ever to come out of science.

A Name of God is I AM.

His Names are also Alpha and Omega. Jesus Christ is the First Cause and the Final Cause of "all that there is."

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.– Col 1:15-20

Praise God!!!

8,013 posted on 10/02/2007 9:26:53 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl; Dr. Eckleburg; irishtenor
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell

Was anything or anyone, before Christ, a firstborn creature?

8,014 posted on 10/02/2007 11:07:43 PM PDT by 1000 silverlings (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: MarkBsnr; suzyjaruki; Dr. Eckleburg

“We’ve been through the Jacob and Esau saga on this thread. My footnotes explain about how the terms is less loved (ie less gifted) rather than hate. My Bible contains all of Scripture, not just the portion that made it past the Reformationist Scriptural Visigoths’ loving attention.”

To be hated by God means you are less gifted? That’s the wonkiest biblical reinvention of scripture I have heard in a very long time.

God ‘hated’ Esau to showcase His sovereignty and His providence. To emphasize that it is His will that be done. That he is the master of salvation. To think of God as anything less would rob Him of his being God. In the fall all men were condemned. It is according to the will of God that some are called out of darkness into light. Jacob was called Esau was not; both deserved hell. Both would have willingly gone apart from the active will of God to save.

To think of God’s calling is to be humbled, as we must certainly know we are in and of ourselves not deserving of His love towards us? Do we not cling to Christ in loving thankfulness for making us clean and presentable by His work on the cross? Can there ever be doubt that no work we do is ever free of some element of self and therefor self serving? Esau served himself and his flesh when he traded his birthright, revealing his true nature as a lover of self only. As all unbelievers he was at enmity with God.


8,015 posted on 10/03/2007 4:19:05 AM PDT by Athena1
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To: P-Marlowe; Forest Keeper
Are you suggesting that "Man's Free Will" (notice the Capital letters) is on a par equal to "His Sovereignty"? (also in Capital letters)

No, you know me better than that, I hope! I capitalized them so that one could see that I was comparing the two. God does not squelch one in favor of the other. Since Scriptures hold to the existence of BOTH, we should not squelch one because WE do not understand how GOD reconciles the two.

Regards

8,016 posted on 10/03/2007 5:36:24 AM PDT by jo kus
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To: jo kus
Since Scriptures hold to the existence of BOTH, we should not squelch one because WE do not understand how GOD reconciles the two.

Where in the Bible does it say that man has any free will at all, much less some kind of inviolate Free Will that God refuses to interfere with?

8,017 posted on 10/03/2007 5:41:54 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: tiki; kosta50; Kolokotronis
It is a hard concept

We only understand enough to know we don't understand!

Nicholas of Cusa's writing I refered to is titled "Learned Ignorance". We reach the highest form of wisdom when we realize we don't understand God... I believe that the Eastern Christians here understand this IDEA better than us Western "rationalists".

Regards

8,018 posted on 10/03/2007 5:42:26 AM PDT by jo kus
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To: Alamo-Girl
And in mathematics, infinity is an unbounded quantity that is greater than every real number.

Eternity – or infinite time – is time without end, without boundary. Time counts, but without end.

There are no "real numbers" in infinity, because every "number" has the same value. Thus, there is unity in infinity. Time, also, has little value in infinity, because time is a measure of change and there is no change in infinity. All points are the same.

That's enough thinking for the day. Thanks for giving me a headache!

Regards

8,019 posted on 10/03/2007 5:46:14 AM PDT by jo kus
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To: D-fendr; kosta50
The idea of “place” connotes corporeal, specific location in time and space. I don’t think even Protestants theologians would agree with this attributes for Hell.

I'm a little surprise if I understand you correctly. Are you saying that hell is not a real place? I think the church fathers and many Protestants, as well as the scriptures, are very clear that hell is indeed a place. Where it is located is besides the point. We certainly do not know all the mysteries of the universe. It could be at the end of a Black Hole or right beneath our feet in another dimension. However, the teachings are clear that hell is a place just as heaven is a place.

I cannot help what John Paul might have thought. If he did not believe it to be a place then he should have spent a bit more time in the scriptures and a little less time in philosophy classes. I have read where some modern theologian believe that hell is simply being separated from God. Well, the scriptures give a little bit more detail about hell and it is far from being separated from God.

Taking off a Calvinist/Protestant hat and going out on one of my HarleyD personal limbs, I would say that God is in hell just as much as He is in heaven. Hell can't be a separation from God since God, by definition, is everywhere. Some say that God is in hell but people cannot see Him as oppose to Him being seen in heaven. This would be similar to the darkness of Egypt in the Old Testament where people grope but couldn't move while there was light in Goshen. God continued to exist in both places. This might be a bit closer to the truth except add the fire, brimstone, the worms eating your flesh; well you get the picture. But wherever, and whatever, hell is, God must surely exist there just as He exists in heaven but perhaps in a different way.

I know Catholics are trying to change the definition of hell to be more consistent with the Orthodox. This is just the same as changing the meaning of the atonement, original sin, and other things. Trouble is all those pesky creeds and early writings. All one can is hope nobody takes them seriously.

8,020 posted on 10/03/2007 5:48:19 AM PDT by HarleyD
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