Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
Did he say that to the priests? No. In fact he abolished the priesthood.
If you accept that this statement is in fact a declaration that the Catholic priest has been granted the power to keep God from forgiving your sins by retaining them in confession, then you are arguing that God created a power for child molesters to threaten children with literal and unreversible eternal damnation by simply retaining their sins unless and until they do something wicked and nasty with the man to whom this power has been granted.
You really think the Priest has that kind of power over the laity? The laity has obviously been told that this is the case. I suspect that the priests who have molested children have used this power for that purpose.
-A8
” I would be among the Mariners, but that wouldn’t make me one”
Right you are, except there were no other apostles mentioned in Paul’s salutations at the end of his letter. All the people mentioned are meeting at a house church in Rome.
How about just bowing your head and asking God to do it?
And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. (Matthew 21:22 KJV)
Is God somehow prohibited from consecrating bread and wine because the person asking for it does not have the requisite apostolic authority or is not wearing the appropriate costume?
Maybe they were small “a” apostles and he was a big “A” apostle :>)
OOOOHHHH, the big hat! I want to wear the big hat!
There is no “priest” mentioned in the letter to the church at Corinth. One would think that if Paul was going to criticize the church for its abuse of the communion elements he would have addressed it to the “priest” in charge or at least have the courtesy of mentioning his name. Nope, looks like the people were serving themselves and Paul was just telling them the proper etiquette for serving. He doesn’t even tell them to wait for the “priest”.
Doesn't the big hat have a 666 on it? BTW, your post seems to have that number.
I posted quickly just to get it :>)
If I stand on my hands it says “999.”
You are failing to distinguish the two meanings of "priest" in English. Our Lord did abolish the hiereus priesthood of the Old Testament. But the words concerning the forgiveness and retention of sins was addressed to the Apostles whose office was continued in the episkopos and prebuteros priesthood of the Catholics and Orthodox of today.
If you accept that this statement is in fact a declaration that the Catholic priest has been granted the power to keep God from forgiving your sins by retaining them in confession, then you are arguing that God created a power for child molesters to threaten children with literal and unreversible eternal damnation by simply retaining their sins unless and until they do something wicked and nasty with the man to whom this power has been granted.
You really think the Priest has that kind of power over the laity? The laity has obviously been told that this is the case. I suspect that the priests who have molested children have used this power for that purpose.
I must say that I find this highly offensive and unworthy of Christian discourse. The vast majority of Catholic priest had nothing to do with child molestation and find it as disgusting as you. Nor does the fact that a very small minority of priest have abused their authority negate the Christ given authority of the Biblical office of presbuteros. Nearly all the Davidic kings, including David himself, abused their authority as king. Yet they were still true kings, God's anointed. If you are uncomfortable with the idea that a episkopos or presbuteros can retain sin then your beef is with our Lord Jesus Christ, not with the Church.
That sort of egalitarianism is completely foreign to the NT and the fathers.
-A8
I think you should learn what this means:
* 1 Sola gratia
* 2 Sola fide
* 3 Sola scriptura
* 4 Solus Christus
* 5 Soli Deo gloria
So God will not consecrate bread or wine unless the one requesting it has the requisite "power"?
That, my friend is Witchcraft.
The only "power" involved in consecrating the communion is the power of Christ. Christ is not conjured up at the whim of a child molesting priest. He is present in the lives of all true believers. We (you and me) are a royal priesthood. A priesthood of believers. Anyone can request that the sacrament be consecrated and God will consecrate it. Anyone can ask God for forgiveness of sins and God will grant it. Anyone can baptize another in the name of Jesus Christ and it will have the same effect as if it were done by one of the Apostles.
Why am I a Roman Catholic?
My mom was Catholic and my dad was Methodist, although he attended church with us on Sundays. I was raised in the 70’s and 80’s so didn’t really get much out of the church other than ‘Jesus is your friend’. I wasn’t a very religious person which allowed me to fall easily away as I grew up and left my parents home.
My brother also fell away. He became Baptist and still is. I experimented with the Methodist church but all I got there was a lot of singing and very little Scripture readings. My brother challenged me on a lot of my beliefs and so did the family of what would become my husband. I decided it was time for me to grow up and take responsibility for my own education.
I bought a bible and started reading. It didn’t make a lot of sense at first. I’m afraid the bible is not exactly a book you pick up and read from start to finish! As I stumbled along (all the time building my prayer life) I started to recognize the passages. They were so familiar! I had heard them my entire life every Sunday. I went back to the Catholic church and knew I’d come home. There were the Scriptures I had been reading. There was Jesus in the Eucharist. God was there for me! Right where He’d always been. The doctrines of the Church regarding abortion and birth control, etc., fit me like a glove. God had given me these gifts and I didn’t even recognize them at first.
I’ll never leave Him or His Church again. I am doing everything I can to give my kids a better faith education than I received as a child. My dad converted about 6 years ago and my husband joined the Church this past Easter. In case you were wondering, I never asked him to convert. I honestly didn’t think it would ever happen. I’m still shocked sometimes that he pursued this on his own and we are now a happy Catholic family! He just needed to decide to research on his own, too. I’m thrilled that he came to the same conclusion! Our family dynamics and prayer life have changed dramatically since we first married 12 years ago. All of this was worth the wait and the struggle!
With all of your recent posts, you almost always use the qualifier “child molesting” with “priest.” An obsession you have there.
No, but the offices of episkopos and presbuteros are mentioned in Acts, 1 Timothy and Titus.
Who do you have in mind? Don't you think your argument would have to depend on what is Biblical Christianity, or, better yet, what constitutes the Bible. Given that the mainline Protestant canon deviates from the Church canon, obviously your argument cannot be applied to the Church. Our Bibles are not the same.
Other sects/cults use additional "scripture" to justify their beliefs "biblically." Thus, Gnostics used additional "gospels" and LDS use the Book of Mormon in addition to the OT and NT. They will tell you that their Christianity is scripturally "sound." On what basis, other than your personal preference of what constitutes scriptures, can you say that they should "no longer be called 'Christian'?
No Protestant can with any certainty say that another Christian is not a "true" Christian. That is the problem with relativism which the Reformation brought in. There is no truth; truth is unknown and if truth is unknown, so is God. In Protestantism, no denomination believes it has true and fully revealed faith. Therefore no protestant "church" can hold to be the true Church of Christ.
The best you can do is find "core agreement." That is hardly enough. For at the bottom of the "core" belief all monotheists (Jews, Christians and Muslims) are "united" in one God! Under "core" belief, Mormons are Christians because they call Christ their Savior. Under "core" belief, mainline Protestants and Catholic/Orthodox Churches are one and the same, because we all agree that God is a simple Trinitarian Monad, and Christ is perfect God-Man (although it takes only to scratch the surface of these concepts to discover that Protestant Trinity and Christology are not the same as those of the Apostolic Church). Outside of those (on the surface) "core" beliefs we don't share anything else with Protestants/Baptists!
And, finally, the Protestants among themselves don't share more than "core" beliefs, all based on individual preference and personal interpretation of the a certain canon of personally chosen scriptures.
Merely because the RC considers itself under one Pope, does not mean that there is perfect unity within it. Similarly, the body of non-RC churches should not be seen as having disunity merely because they are in many denominations
It's not comparable. All Roman Catholics believe one and the same thing. There are no "core" Catholic beliefs they all share and then have a plethora of "other beliefs" they don't. Catholics in order to be Catholics by definition believe one and the same thing on all aspects of the Catholic faith. The same is true of the Eastern Orthodox. You can't be a Catholic/Orthodox "a little bit." It's an either or issue.
So, while our praxis may be influenced by our weaknesses and personal preferences, liberal or conservative leanings, our faith does not vary from person to person. Liberal Catholics still believe exactly the same thing the conservative Catholics believe. So, there is perfect unity in faith even if there is not always unity in praxis.
John Kerry cannot claim to be a Catholic and support infanticide (late term abortions), or abortions in general, and expect to be a Catholic. He is free to believe what he wills, but if those are his beliefs than he has excommunicated himself form the Church because there is no room for such abominations in the catholic and orthodox faith.
it is incorrect to speak of the "Protestant/Baptist world" as if it were a uniform entity
All heresy is the same, even if the devil is in the details. :) They are all united in their "core" denial of, and separation from the Apostolic Church.
The focus is not on the believer, but rather on God. Similarly, truth is not dependent upon mere individual interpretation, but rather upon the Spirit working within the individual, but tested against both scripture and other mature Christians
But never against the 2,000 year old cumulative knowledge and wisdom of the Church. You will go to "mature" Christians (mature by whose standards?), and rely on the nebulous working of the Spirit within (never mind that it is your word against mine), but will not trust the earliest Church Fathers who were the closest to the original Church and the Apostles!
Protestantism is a fortress religion. Everyone shuts himself in with the Spirit, real or imaginary, and distrusts everyone else.
“But the words concerning the forgiveness and retention of sins was addressed to the Apostles whose office was continued in the episkopos and prebuteros priesthood of the Catholics and Orthodox of today.”
By definition the office of Apostle ended with the last to have been an eye witness to the resurrection. It could not have been passed on. There is no evidence that the apostles ever used that “forgiveness and retention of sins” as Jesus did. John says if we confess our sins God is faithful and just to forgive and cleanse. He does not mention that the confession could be blocked by someone here deciding not to allow the promised forgiveness. We have access to the Father through Jesus, there is no earthly “gatekeeper”.
Act 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection
In your Catholic pecking order a child molesting Priest is higher than the victims he molests. The child molesting priest has the "power" to consecrate the sacraments and to retain the sins of his victims. His victims are powerless.
You guys condemn egalitarianism as if, in the context of our relationship to God, it is a bad thing. No, the Catholic priesthood is all about power over the laity.
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