Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
Thanks for your post. If you’d care to answer the ‘where hell is’ part, I’d be interested too.
I don’t think Heaven is a big house. I think Jesus describing the afterlife to us is akin to us describing life to a fetus.
Luke 16:19-31, “There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.”
Lazarus was in Paradise, the place of the righteous dead until Christ’s resurrection. This was the place that the thief went and Christ went and preached and then emptied it in the resurrection and ascension.
Eph. 4:8-10, “Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)” quoting Ps. 68:18, “Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them”. Rev. 1:18, “I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.”
Paul says that there is no more waiting for the believer in Paradise but to be dead is to be with Jesus. Again, Jesus has a resurrected, glorified body that is localized. He can’t be omnipresent , that’s why He sent the Holy Spirit, so there must be a “place” where we are with Him. The people gathered with Him at His ascension were told He would come again in like manner.
2 Cor 5:6 Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:...(8) “ We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.”
Phil. 1:23, “For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
The unbeliever is not in the presence of Jesus but kept in hell awaiting judgment.
Job 21:30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.
2Pe 2:4, “For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;”
Jud 1:6, “And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”
1 Pet 3:18-20, “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.”
Rev. 20:11-15, “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
Not to be Clintonian, but it depends on what “place” is.
I don’t think we would say God the Father lives in a house, yet Jesus says “my Father’s house”. Obviously there’s some metorphorization goin on.
If we look at heaven and hell as specific locations in time an space, with size, shape, etc - our usual meaning of “place”, then we’re further led to wonder, “where is this place?” Near another planet? Somewhere inside earth? And so on...
I’m thinking that this result would require us to look differently at the metaphor, or imagine something unimaginable to us.
thanks for your reply..
Exactly.. I Cor 2;9
I doubt it will come up because He knows that I know that there is only one mediator between God and men. The Church's interpretation of John 20:23 sets up man as an equal to God, and defies many other scriptures such as:
Isa 43:25 : "I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more.
Mic 7:18 : Who is a God like you, who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance? You do not stay angry forever but delight to show mercy. .... [Apparently Micah didn't know who was coming to be a "God like Him".]
Acts 8:22 : Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. .... [Isn't it fascinating that Peter did not tell Simon to confess his sins to him (Peter), or any other Apostle, in order to receive forgiveness?]
Acts 13:38-39 : 38 "Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39 Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses. .... [Paul knew what his authority really was. Nowhere does Paul, or anyone other Apostle say "Confess you sins to me and I will forgive you.]
There is no practice of men forgiving sins here, or anywhere else in the Bible that I can find. Even at Pentecost, did Peter conduct a mass confession to him? No, he said to repent in the name of Christ for the forgiveness of sins. I'm not certain, but this may be the only power supposedly granted by God that is never used as far as we know from scripture. I find that very odd.
There is ultimately just one interpretation of one verse, as opposed to many other verses that say it is God who forgives sins, and that Christ is our only mediator. Redefining the word "mediator", as the Church has done to allow the interposition of men in between God and His children, does not change what it means in the scriptures.
“Not to be Clintonian, but it depends on what “place” is.”
I understand the time/space problem, but then why the resurrected bodies? Jesus’ could be seen, touched and fed. It was glorified flesh that occupied space. If the resurrected disciples are to rule and saints are to rule, and we are to reign with Christ, who and what are we to reign over?
I will preach the Gospels to you; what do you give me? Why do so many people try to build theology upon other than the Gospels? Man is not equal to God; nothing in Christian Catholic theology even hints at it.
First addressed to Peter: Matt 16:19 “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
And secondly addressed to all His disciples: Mat 18:18 “I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
It is not the Catholics that do not adhere to the instructions of Christ. We do, and we do it very keenly. We are aware of those who do not; some of them boast and some of them do not boast. Nonetheless, they do not.
“Not to be Clintonian, but it depends on what “place” is.”
I understand the time/space problem, but then why the resurrected bodies? Jesus’ could be seen, touched and fed. It was glorified flesh that occupied space. If the resurrected disciples are to rule and saints are to rule, and we are to reign with Christ, who and what are we to reign over?
But I thought you said earlier that the Spirit is still indwelling, but is something like "dormant", until the mortal sin is resolved? The above doesn't sound like that, it sounds more like what Alex said. Based on what you've said, I was sort of expecting your answer to be that the Spirit would leave at the point of physical death, if the mortal sin is not taken care of.
Then either God will right my ship to show me the error of my ways (discipline, conscience, etc.), or He will take me home before I lose my salvation.
Actually, you don’t, not entirely, because you are in a state of sin right now, just as I and every other human is.
No. While I of course still sin from time to time, I am not "in a state of sin". Such a person is lost and is dead in sin, or a slave to sin. I am not that any longer. Now, I am a slave to righteousness, and in a state of Christ's justification.
Glorified flesh?.. Why not multifarious spirit(s)?..
Spirit that can assume the form of bodies on a whim.. like Angels.. only better..
Your options seem to be limited.. I Cor 2;9...
Jesus body could go thru walls..flesh cannot do that..
I am sure you have heard many on my side frequently speak of our having a "personal relationship" with Christ. Every other week my pastor emphasizes that such a personal relationship is really what Christianity is. I have gathered that the Church strongly disagrees with this idea, given that the laity are taught to first go through priests or saints for contact with (or action by) God. Do the priests themselves believe they have a personal relationship with God? Is the personal relationship you have heard us speak of more properly between the laity and the Church?
Confession is repentance, FK. If you repent, you are forgiven. Should you receive Christ without repentance?
I suppose under your beliefs, probably not. :) I have already repented, received Christ, and been forgiven. Since Christ will never leave me, I only needed to receive Him once.
Where does it say in the Bible we should confess sins (only) directly to God?
Logic would tell us to confess our sins to those who can forgive us. On a spiritual level, that is only God. I listed some scripture in 5785.
Confession to God is no effort, no fruit of repentance, because he already knows your sins. You don't have to tell Him anything!
Then you're not doing it right! :) While I am typing this to you, and hopefully not sinning depending on the words I choose :), I can intellectually know for certain that God knows everything I do and all that. Do you think that is what is going through my mind when I DO sin? No way. But when I confess directly to God, THEN I've got a problem because lying gets me nowhere. We can fool a priest, but there's no fooling God. By admitting to God I am also admitting to myself. Believe me, a true confession directly to God many times takes a lot of effort, at least for me. :)
FK: "Doesn't this go against everything we teach our children? If your child has wronged someone and wants to apologize face to face do you tell her to instead tell a friend to pass along the message?"
There you go with your children examples again. It's not the same, FK. God already knows. It's no effort 'fessing up to God.
The Bible is PACKED with children examples. What's wrong with them? :)
Loving those who love you is no accomplishment.
If you are referring to verses like Matt. 5:46, I'm not sure how it applies here. Do you not love your priest? Does he not love you? Do you really think the point of the Matthew verse was that loving those who love you is worthless? Or, was it perhaps motivational to get people to understand that we are to love everyone, including our enemies? I mean, Christ loved us first, right?
... okay, it is not an offer if you say "if the earth is hit by a comet tomorrow, you don't have to go to work." But if God makes a promise to someone, "If you do this, I will raise you" it is a promissory conditional offer.
It certainly "can" be taken that way, but that would have God bargaining at arm's length with humans. Does the God that you understand need to make deals? Or, does He use language like that in order to teach in terms we can understand? I think the latter.
It's about harming little ones. The discussion was about God killing little ones, hence the reference.
OK, I guess I was thinking that leading a child into sin, while very bad, was different than causing the time and manner of physical death. Plus, other humans are not ours to do with as we please, so there are rules for us. God has His own rules, some of which are the same, and some of which are different. His rules are not our rules. :)
Well, does that mean that God causes their deaths and everyone else's death is random? What about this idea? :
Ps 139:13 : For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.
Do you suppose that knitting included congenital birth defects, abnormally strong heart muscles, below average immune systems, etc.? Or, do you suppose that we are made physically equal and everything after that happens by chance? If our time of death is irrelevant to God, then wouldn't it have to be the latter?
Did not Adam live to be over 900 years old? His soul died the day he ate the fruit (as the Lord said it would), but his body lived in sin for a long time, longer than any other human being I think.
I don't think we can have any idea how long Adam lived in sin. He might have repented an hour after he got chewed out by God. Who knows? We have some evidence that Eve repented, but we just aren't told about Adam.
FK: "I would fully agree that physical death is certainly no punishment for the elect."
Then why don't they celebrate when someone dies? Why don't they lead lives that promote brevity of life on earth, or just have somebody shoot them?
In my church we DO celebrate the lives of the departed. Of course, we also feel sorry for ourselves at our own loss. That is what mourning is supposed to be I think, and it is a Biblical practice. When a Christian I know dies, I don't feel sorry for him, only myself and the person's loved ones.
We are not to commit suicide because it breaks a Commandment. God obviously wants His children here for a time for His reasons. One of which is to fulfill the Great Commission. If we're all dead, then who is going to do the work? :) Plus, we have to stay alive long enough to make more future Christians. When enough have been made, He will let us know. :)
If it was good enough for Adam, it's good enough for the Protestant "elect." You have Adam's nature, it's called mortal. We all die because Adam sinned.
I forgot what the answer to the paradox was. Here, mankind benefits from the commission of sin, since if we never die, no one goes to be in Heaven with God. But mankind also benefited from the crucifixion. Are you sure God has no control over whenever sin happens? :)
What is the biblical meaning of "indwelling"? Perhaps that might help with understanding this. We know God is present EVERYWHERE, since anything that exists absolutely relies on God's effects. Thus, technically speaking, God doesn't "leave" a person in mortal sin, since then, that person would cease to exist. However, when we speak of indwelling, I think we are talking about something more than the Holy Spirit keeping us in existence. In this sense, when a person sins mortally, the indwelling is no longer effective. That is obvious, since to sin mortally requires that a man absolutely refuse God. However, we know that God CAN and DOES "re-indwell" within a person, because they can repent. Man cannot repent without God's graces.
Another thought is to consider how does a person FIRST come to Christ and repent? There must be some sort of "pre-Baptismal state" where the Spirit is not "indwelling" yet, but is still effective in some manner, calling a person to conversion and repentance.
Regards
Yes, I meant to say that Schaeffer was not calling these people bums, he just disagreed with them and noted their importance. About Kierkegaard, I think Schaeffer even said that he would have been disappointed at what his philosophy has led to.
I like Schaeffer’s thought. Of course once you put Kiekegaard on the “philosophy” shelf and take him off the “Christianity” shelf, the academics will try to purge him of any taint of Jesus. I think he was very committed to a relationship with Jesus and too impatient with the imperfections of other Christians. His writing is dense, but I found it beautiful.
That is a fascinating couple of statements.
“If you, F-K have the indwelling knowledge that you are of the elect and you are going to get to Heaven and there’s nothing that anyone can do about it, what if you don’t go and evangelize? What if you don’t do as you are commanded?
Then either God will right my ship to show me the error of my ways (discipline, conscience, etc.), or He will take me home before I lose my salvation. “
Are you saying that if you stop performing as God wants you to, and you resist any of His pressures to do so, then you’ll be taken up to Heaven with Him forever? Wow. Since Heaven is infinitely better than having a Democratic Congress and Senate, then isn’t that a very good reason to stop going about the Lord’s business?
“While I of course still sin from time to time, I am not “in a state of sin”.”
What happens to that sin that is committed from time to time? Is it of any consequence, or no?
Is this like saying God can sin?
Your first sentence is within time, but your second is not. If, to borrow a phrase :), "all time for God is NOW", which I have never disputed, then Jesus on the cross "happened" across all time. Therefore, why can't His sacrifice be in effect within time for all the OT righteous at the time they were alive?
My only problem is with the appearance of Moses at Mt. Tabor.
There it is. You raise an excellent point. If the sacrifice applied to Moses when he lived, then he would have been eligible to make that appearance.
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