Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years? (Challenge to Apostolicity)

Progressive Theology ^ | July 07

[kosta50]

Are they also naive? I have read on other EO sites that the KJV is recommended for NT study. More naivety?

You are jumping to concusions based on superficial information.

[Alamo-Girl]

And may God ever bless them who undertake such a daunting task.

Amen!

Praise God!!!

[Alamo-Girl]

Again, thank you for sharing your concerns!

[Alamo-Girl]

Just turn the other cheek and count it all to God's glory.

Precisely so! Praise God!!!

[kosta50]

And what “quality” control check do you have over the church’s interpretation of the truth?

You recognize that what the Church put together by the end of the 4th century represents the scriptures. On what do you base your trust that the Church really did put together a Christian canon that you worship?

Do you not think that the same Church whose expertise or Holy Spirit helped put together the Christian Canon is at the same time not the authority to recognize and interpret the same scriptures it has selected as Canon?

And on what do you base your insinuation that the Church somehow 'lost' that authority over time?

The quality control is contained in the liturgy that goes back practically to the beginning; the documents describing practices and beliefs; the earliest writings of Apostolic Fathers—people who were ordained by living Apostles, and all those who followed them. They all profess one and the same catholic and orthodox faith once delivered and always believed.

[kosta50]

From what has been posted here, I have the impression that to belong to the Orthodox church, you must learn the original Greek language to be able to read the true scripture which only they possess

That is a gross micharacterization of what was asserted.

[Alamo-Girl]

Indeed, that is what I thought you were addressing:

Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it. - Matthew 13:46

[Forest Keeper]

There is a scripture (I can't find it) but essentially it says, "To whom much is given, more is expected". To me that means if you are given an understanding you should tell others. If you don't, if you keep it to yourself, then how are you helping God or others?

Here it is:

Luke 12:47-48 : 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. KJV

[kosta50]

I think we have established that the scriptures are superfluous in the Orthodox Church. The teachings of the Orthodox Church (the traditions of men) have fully supplanted the scripture as the authority upon which they base their faith. They believe that their traditions are pure, whereas the scriptures are corrupt

Again, you are shooting from the hip, showing that you criticism is based on ignorance of the subject matter you so eagerly denigrade. From the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America:

The Holy Scriptures

The Holy Bible (or Scriptures, the Old and New Testaments) is the most authoritative part of the Sacred Tradition of the Church. As with today's laws that govern the life of our modern society, these laws are the product of the life of the community; however, once produced, they are placed above and regulate this life.

So it is with the Holy Scripture: once established by the Christian community, led by the Holy Spirit of God, then Scripture is placed above and regulates the life of the Christian community. The Bible is the product and the epiphenomenon of the life of the Church, being also the work of men.

But it is also the work of the Holy Spirit of God, working in this life of the Church. This is why the Church is subjected to the authority of the Bible.

Much has been said regarding the Divine authorship and inspiration of the Bible (theopneustia). Various theories have been expressed throughout the centuries concerning the way in which the Bible is the work of the Holy Spirit.

Philo of Alexandria is the main exponent of the so-called "mechanical theory" of understanding the divine inspiration of the Holy Spirit. According to Philo, the authors of the Bible were in a condition of "possession" by the Spirit of God, who was just using these authors as blind instruments. A better view is the so-called "dynamic view" of the cooperation between man and the Holy Spirit in the case of the Bible. In any case of "synergy"  (cooperation) between God and man, God leads, and man follows; God works, and man accepts God's work in him, as God's coworker in subordination to Him.

So it is with divine inspiration in the case of the Bible: the Holy Spirit inspires, and the sacred author follows the Holy Spirit's injunctions, utilizing his own human and imperfect ways to express the perfect message and doctrine of the Holy Spirit.

In this sense, we can understand possible imperfections in the books of the Bible, since they are the result of the cooperation between the all-perfect and perfecting Divine Author, the Spirit, and the imperfect human author.

Biblical textual criticism is completely normal and acceptable by the Orthodox, since they see the Bible in this light. Nothing human is perfect, including the Bible, which is the end product of human cooperation with the divine Spirit.

That's what the EOC teaches regarding the holy scriptures. Learn what the other side teaches before embarrassing yourself with sweeping generalizations.

[hosepipe]

[.. Thank you for your observations about Christianity in China. I am hearing this, too, just as you report it. ..]

I have known many chinese people that share there has been a large chinese (home)church since the 1920's or so.. The people meet quietly in small groups even 2,3, or 4 not to raise suspicion.. Even the chinese christians don't know how big the church is there.. But its been growing strongly for at least 80 years(more like a 100).. Amazing the depth of spiritual knowledge these ones have too..

Must have to do with risking your life and livelihood to even BE a christian.. The ones I've known are not nominal christians.. There is also a strong chinese church in San Francisco of all places.. One wonders how many of the chinese army and even many politicians are christians.. MAOS purges of buddhism(and related religions) must have opened a void.. And christ(messiah) being an infintely better concept has filled the void somewhat, I think..

The chinese are more open to biblical metaphor than some other cultures, maybe, probably.. Jesus used metaphorical epigrams to display most meaningful things.. They "get it"(mostly).. not all cultures do easily.. These chinese "brothers" are rich sources of spiritual gold.. IF YOU CAN get them to open up..

[P-Marlowe]

Learn what the other side teaches before embarrassing yourself with sweeping generalizations.

Maybe you should do that with Calvinism.

[Alamo-Girl]

LOL. Perceived heresy is a "greater negligence" than "unjust persecution?"

Seems to me that religious authorities, faced with what they perceive to be heresy, should remember Gamaliel's restraint:

And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God. – Acts 5:38-39

The moral of the story is to never be complacent.

Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee. - Romans 11:18-21

And again:

Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. - Romans 14:4-5

[kosta50]

Clearly GOD changes us before we even realize what's happening. The joy is when we begin to realize how truly blessed we are because we were so undeserving.

If God changes you to believe, then the faith you have is not your faith. You are brainwashed into believing. If the Spirit indwells you simply by choosing you as a suitable 'elect' then you are possessed by the Spirit.

The fact that this may be 'undeserving' and beneficial for the 'elect' individual doesn't change the fact that it was done against one's will; it was forced.

Justifying this as God's love is false because true love does not sneak up on anyone. True love is not hypnotizing someone into believing (s)he loves you.

But it was FK who said that the Spirit has to come in before you can pray to Jesus. Man has to come to realization that there may be God, that He may exist before he can even decide if he will accept it or reject it.

The call comes from God, but the faith has to reflect man's own mindset.

[hosepipe]

[.. Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it. - Matthew 13:46 ..]

Absolutly.. What a gem? what a process?.. A priceless thing brought forth from the pain of a living organism.. So like the spirit growing and developing in us, in our bodies. How could a fair price be negotiated for all the pain and discomfort.. Whatever the price... its NOT enough.. Jesus Spirit being born of the same kind of process only most severe.. is a wonderful hope and encouragement..

In this metaphor and object lesson and reality Jesus went through it and the "Body of Christ" is going though the same process.. Amazing thing "the Pearl of Great Price".. maybe it could be said.. the PEARLS of great price.. since the spirit/Spirit is distributed, the same spirit.. announcing oneness.. and at one ment.. to all creation..

The word of god is living and operable to the dividing of soul and spirit.. to a pearl-like essence..

Is God COOL or WHAT?..

[kosta50]

Maybe you should do that with Calvinism

I know what Calvinism teaches.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so very much for sharing your insights concerning Christianity in China!

[Alamo-Girl]

What a beautiful metaphor, dear brother in Christ! Thank you !

No wonder pearls were chosen for the gates in New Jerusalem!

And had a wall great and high, [and] had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are [the names] of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: - Revelation 21:12

And the twelve gates [were] twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city [was] pure gold, as it were transparent glass. - Revelation 21:21

Praise God!!!

[P-Marlowe]

I know what Calvinism teaches.

It's called scriptural truth.

But since you reject scripture, then naturally you would reject Calvinism.

[kosta50]

It's called scriptural truth

Hw would you know what scriptural truth is?

But since you reject scripture, then naturally you would reject Calvinism

Your logic is flawed. It is perfectly possible to accept scriptures AND reject Calvinism.

All this is your attempt to distract from your original, patently false and embarrassing sweeping generalization, namely "I think we have established that the scriptures are superfluous in the Orthodox Church. The teachings of the Orthodox Church (the traditions of men) have fully supplanted the scripture as the authority upon which they base their faith."

[Seven_0]

Amazing thing "the Pearl of Great Price".. maybe it could be said.. the PEARLS of great price.

But it said he found one pearl of great price.