Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
i think the emphasis is placed for those who are so convinced they believe.
if someone’s goal is to believe exactly what Christ wanted I’d start by making a distinction as to when the new covenant began...
So, what you are saying is that those who died before Jesus arose from the grave didn’t have to believe in him? There was another way to God but Jesus? Is that what you are saying?
if protestants faith was in Christ they wouldn’t happily get giddy and say that folks who’s faith is in clear contradiction to what they believe Christ professed are ‘also Christians’. It’d be kind of like saying because mexicans claim to be human that they are also Americans.
It was YOUR verse, which I demonstrated you having no real idea what it meant.
yeah it’s called the law God gave moses and I’ve frankly never heard any Christian argue against that since otherwise we have to follow both laws.
have you made animal sacrifices in the temple this month?
Snort... quit, you are making me laugh.
There is only one sacrifice sufficient to cleans our souls from sin, that is the perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross.
So, tell me, which of the Ten Commandments do you not have to follow now?
I really don't see anything about ordination and special powers in Matthew 16:13-20. The "keys" to salvation didn't change. It is FAITH in JESUS alone our ROCK that opens heaven to us.
Reality check: we were not talking about me.
The "keys" are explained in the Bible. Read it.
yea thats why you think the thief died under the new covenant.
so tell me when was the last time you sacrificed animals in the temple?
the good thief and bad alike had to do this, that was God’s covenant with the Jews.
this wasn’t changed UNTIL CHRIST DIED AND ROSE FROM THE DEAD.
So, Abaham was saved by sacrifice, not by faith, eh? He was obedient to the laws, eh? David, too? And Solomon, Isaac, and the rest? No, they were under the same condemnation we all were, until we had faith.
Keep trying.
seems you’ve got some reading to do:
Gen 6:18 But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons’ wives with thee.
Gen 9:9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;
Gen 9:11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.
Gen 9:12 And God said, This [is] the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that [is] with you, for perpetual generations:
Gen 9:13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.
Gen 9:15 And I will remember my covenant, which [is] between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.
Gen 9:16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that [is] upon the earth.
Gen 9:17 And God said unto Noah, This [is] the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that [is] upon the earth.
Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
Gen 17:2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
Gen 17:4 As for me, behold, my covenant [is] with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Gen 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
Gen 17:10 This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
Gen 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
Gen 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, [and] with his seed after him.
Gen 17:21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
Gen 21:27 And Abraham took sheep and oxen, and gave them unto Abimelech; and both of them made a covenant.
Gen 21:32 Thus they made a covenant at Beersheba: then Abimelech rose up, and Phichol the chief captain of his host, and they returned into the land of the Philistines.
Gen 26:28 And they said, We saw certainly that the LORD was with thee: and we said, Let there be now an oath betwixt us, [even] betwixt us and thee, and let us make a covenant with thee;
Gen 31:44 Now therefore come thou, let us make a covenant, I and thou; and let it be for a witness between me and thee.
Exd 2:24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.
Exd 6:4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers.
Exd 6:5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant.
Exd 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth [is] mine:
Exd 23:32 Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods.
Exd 24:7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.
Exd 24:8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled [it] on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.
Exd 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, [for] a perpetual covenant.
Exd 34:10 And he said, Behold, I make a covenant: before all thy people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among which thou [art] shall see the work of the LORD: for it [is] a terrible thing that I will do with thee.
Exd 34:12 Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee:
Exd 34:15 Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and [one] call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice;
Exd 34:27 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.
Exd 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
Lev 2:13 And every oblation of thy meat offering shalt thou season with salt; neither shalt thou suffer the salt of the covenant of thy God to be lacking from thy meat offering: with all thine offerings thou shalt offer salt.
Lev 24:8 Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, [being taken] from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant.
Lev 26:9 For I will have respect unto you, and make you fruitful, and multiply you, and establish my covenant with you.
Lev 26:15 And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, [but] that ye break my covenant:
Lev 26:25 And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of [my] covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.
Lev 26:42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
Lev 26:44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I [am] the LORD their God.
Lev 26:45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I [am] the LORD.
Num 10:33 And they departed from the mount of the LORD three days’ journey: and the ark of the covenant of the LORD went before them in the three days’ journey, to search out a resting place for them.
Num 14:44 But they presumed to go up unto the hill top: nevertheless the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and Moses, departed not out of the camp.
Num 18:19 All the heave offerings of the holy things, which the children of Israel offer unto the LORD, have I given thee, and thy sons and thy daughters with thee, by a statute for ever: it [is] a covenant of salt for ever before the LORD unto thee and to thy seed with thee.
Num 25:12 Wherefore say, Behold, I give unto him my covenant of peace:
Num 25:13 And he shall have it, and his seed after him, [even] the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel.
Deu 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, [even] ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
that’s the first 90 of 292 mentions before Christ.
Clearly the RCC and EOC believe that a special power was given to Peter and then the rest of the disciples. I think a much more straightforward interpretation is consistent with Jesus' earthly ministry. The keys of heaven are FAITH in JESUS, without this you will not be saved. The binding and loosening is the preaching of the gospel. The listeners that hear and believe are bound by the Holy Spirit. The listeners who hear but don't believe are free of the Holy Spirit, loosed.
OK, I see your OT and raise you a NT. Romans 4:3 “ What does the scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
Belief, not works. Belief, not baptism. Belief.
Nice try, though.
yeah but Christ never broke the covenant God made with the jews, see that’d make God a LIAR which isn’t something a CHRISTIAN would allege. seems to me you’ve got some basic reading to do.
is there an FR little league you could head off to I don’t have time for basic Christianity 101.
clearly protestants believe that not only did Christ waste his time telling several apostles this but that it only REALLY applied to law school drop outs 1450 years latter.
That’s the whole point. None of the people could keep the law. All were condemned by their lack of piety. But God still saved some. Why? not because of their actions, but by their faith. They believed in God.
I can tell by your arguements that you have had little experience in a debate, and had actually very little knowledge of what you are trying to debate. You have not answer one of my points, and you resort to childish name calling. I have only one more thing to say to you. Neener, neener, neener.
We believe that all those who receive Jesus as Lord are to be baptized as well as their children as a mark of belonging to God’s covenant people. We do not indiscriminately baptize infants, only the children of church members. This type of baptism is known as Covenant Baptism. Just as children in the Old Testament received circumcision as a sign of participation in the Old Covenant, children of believing parents have a portion in the New Covenant (cf. Acts 2:38-39, Colossians 2:11-12). However, a child is not saved just because he has been baptized. Rather, baptism is a sign that the child has the privilege of enjoying the external blessings of the Covenant, (i.e., he can hear the preaching of the Word, receive Christian training and nurturing from his parents and church etc.). When a child is old enough to express saving faith in Christ, he is examined by the elders and then admitted to the Lord’s Supper. A person does not have to accept Covenant Baptism to be a member of the church unless he is an Elder or Deacon. Only baptized believers who are members in good standing of an evangelical church may receive communion.
http://www.christian-civilization.org/highlands-reformed/presbyterian.html
wait those aren’t Presbyterians talking are they? oh but yeah they are.
so go ask your ‘pastor’ the real deal.
*noting that your church clearly does not believe this*
so basically you’re saying everyone pre-Christ is in hell. permanently yes?
Methinks you should come up with a new slogan rather than prince of peace, the great bait and switch.
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