Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
So you are suggesting that Protestant churches are satanic in origin???
Would Christ wish to see His Church torn and shattered into 33,000 little "churches?" The underlying message of Protestantism suggests that the Church Christ established was in apostasy from the beginning.
Obviously, both can't be true.
And what if you’re wrong??? Suppose the Holy Spirit is leading people to the Protestant churches...
Why would He do that? Because His Church is not true, but Protestant "churches" are? And which one of the 33,000 Protestant "churches" is the "true" one? Or are they all true a little bit, some more others less? Syncretism and pantheism did not come from God, that's for sure. So I am not worried about being wrong.
You could be in a heap of trouble...
So could the Protestants.
LOL!!!!!! At least you have a sense of humor.
Which Jesus: Jesus according to the Arians, Jesus according to the Nestorians, Jesus according to the Monophysites, Jesus according to the Monothelites or Jesus according to the Catholics?
-A8
Through the past 2,000 years, the historic creeds of Christendom have been developed by the believing faithful in order to combat error and heresies. Some creeds got it more correct than others. And this we can see by comparing them to the word of God.
It's just not that difficult.
And...
While, however, the Scriptures are from God, the understanding of them belongs to the part of men. Men must interpret to the best of their ability each particular part of Scripture separately, and then combine all that the Scriptures teach upon every subject into a consistent whole, and then adjust their teachings upon different subjects in mutual consistency as parts of a harmonious system. Every student of the Bible must do this...""It is asserted in the first chapter of this Confession [The Westminster Confession of Faith], and vindicated in this exposition that the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments, having been given by inspiration of God, are for man in his present state the only and the all-sufficient rule of faith and practice. All that man is to believe concerning God, and the entire duty which God requires of man, are revealed therein, and are to be believed and obeyed because contained therein, because it is the word of God. This divine word, therefore, is the only standard of doctrine which has intrinsic authority binding the conscience of men. And all other standards are of value or authority only in proportion as they teach what the Scriptures teach.
Only the Catholic Church can trace her origin back to the incarnate Christ.
I do not recognize much of Christ in the current "Catholic Church."
Instead I see Mary as "co-redeemer," and prayers to assorted dead people, and fables such as limbo and purgatory, and a usurper presuming to sit as head of Christ's church on earth, and various idolatries encouraged, and most especially, I see the Biblical truth of justification by the faith of Jesus Christ alone being denied and brazenly turned into a works-based salvation doled out by imposters who have the astounding hubris to call themselves "another Christ" -- all of which corrupts the word of God and denies the power and truth of the Holy Spirit to work sanctification in the hearts and minds of those who have been called to liberty by His will.
This doctrine (justification by faith alone) is not learned or gotten by any study, diligence, or wisdom of man, but it is revealed by God Himself." -- Martin Luther
"I had hanging on my neck the pope, the universities, all the deep learned, and the devil; these hunted me into the Bible, wherein I sedulously read..."
And there in Scripture the truth was revealed to Luther by the power of God and the wisdom of God...
"Whilst a man is persuaded that he has it in his power to contribute anything, be it ever so little, to his salvation, he remains in carnal self-confidence; he is not a self-despairer, and therefore is not duly humbled before God, he believes he may lend a helping hand in his salvation, but on the contrary, whoever is truly convinced that the whole work depends singly on the will of God, such a person renounces his own will and strength; he waits and prays for the operation of God, nor waits and prays in vain..." -- Luther
As I've come to realize through these threads, the RCC teaches that the Holy Spirit only speaks through the magisterium and its portioning out of its sacraments.
But Scripture tells us the Holy Spirit is given to each believer, personally. And this is verified by how closely our Christian walk parallels the words of God. We are known by our fruit.
Perhaps that's why Protestants have found a clearer path to salvation -- no middle man.
"Be not afraid; only believe." -- Mark 5:36
What about all the other Christians that received the Holy Spirit without anyone laying hands on them?
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:27-28 KJV)
Clement & Polycarp?
Of course they are. Are you sure that you’ve read them???
Comparing them to whose interpretation of the word of God?
-A8
LOL!!!!!! At least you have a sense of humor.
Yeah, wow...LOL...that one threw me for a loop.
Xzins, if you are right that the early Fathers were "in total agreement" with Protestants, then we should be able to proceed forward in time from the earliest Fathers and reasonably establish when their original Protestant-like doctrine was corrupted into half-paganized Catholicism. We "know" things started out good, but then ended up bad, so presumably we should be able to see when and how the change came about historically.
Does that sound about right? Do you think that can be done?
That is also what the Catholic Church teaches.
-A8
Then, by that formula, you must consider LDS as part of that One Church, and I know you don't.
-A8
LOL. Catholics act like the word of God is written in hieroglyphics or cryptograms or some foreign language.
But Good News! Since 1535 there's been an English Bible, and it's now available for all men to read and understand, by the will of God.
It's just not that difficult.
Unless you're looking to make it difficult and exclusionary by putting up barriers to the clear message of the Gospel -- "Be not afraid; only believe" (Mark 5:36).
Perhaps your Protestant background wishes that were so, but the evidence is to the contrary.
If Clement and Polycarp were "protestants" then SS John and Peter must have been "protestant" as well, since they taught Polycarp and Clement!
But given that St. peter and St. Paul did not see eye to eye for a while, and since Protestants seem to favor St. Paul (like Marcion did), I doubt St. Peter was very "protestant."
But, maybe you can tell us specifically which part makes Polycarp and Clemnent "protestant," and at which point in the 1500 year span between Pentecost and Luther did the Church "stop" being "protestant."
LOL!!!
I like it too. It's a nice verse.
Why don't you like it?
If interpreting Scripture is "just not that difficult" then why are there thousands of Protestant denominations, and the one you think has it right (i.e. the Orthodox Presbyterian Church) has only around 30,000 members worldwide, out of about 590 million Protestants worldwide (i.e. roughly .005% of Protestants are getting it right, in your view)?
-A8
Ordination is what imparts the "keys." You can receive the Spirit but you do not have the "keys." We are all part of God's priesthood, and some are part of the ordained priesthood, which must be Apostolic in succession. Protestants and Baptists and other sects and cults have no ordianed priesthood.
See CCC 1265.
-A8
There may be some LDS who fit into that cateogory, just as there are some Methodists and Presbyterians and Orthodox who would fit into that category; not by virtue of their membership in any organization run by men, but by virtue of Christ's having written their names in the Book of Life.
The LDS Church is not a true Church as they do not believe in the Christ revealed in Scripture. Nevertheless if God can make Sons of Abraham from stones, then he can make Children of God from Mormons.
When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
(Matthew 19:25-26 KJV)
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