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Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years? (Challenge to Apostolicity)
Progressive Theology ^ | July 07

Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins

Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years?

Wednesday, 11 July 2007

Yesterday's Reuters headline: "The Vatican on Tuesday said Christian denominations outside the Roman Catholic Church were not full churches of Jesus Christ." The actual proclamation, posted on the official Vatican Web site, says that Protestant Churches are really "ecclesial communities" rather than Churches, because they lack apostolic succession, and therefore they "have not preserved the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic Mystery." Furthermore, not even the Eastern Orthodox Churches are real Churches, even though they were explicitly referred to as such in the Vatican document Unitatis Redintegratio (Decree on Ecumenism). The new document explains that they were only called Churches because "the Council wanted to adopt the traditional use of the term." This new clarification, issued officially by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, but in fact strongly supported by Pope Benedict XVI, manages to insult both Protestants and the Orthodox, and it may set ecumenism back a hundred years.

The new document, officially entitled "Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church," claims that the positions it takes do not reverse the intent of various Vatican II documents, especially Unitatis Redintegratio, but merely clarify them. In support of this contention, it cites other documents, all issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith: Mysterium Ecclesiae (1973), Communionis notio (1992), and Dominus Iesus (2000). The last two of these documents were issued while the current pope, as Cardinal Ratzinger, was prefect of the Congregation. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith was born in 1542 with the name Sacred Congregation of the Universal Inquisition, and for centuries it has operated as an extremely conservative force with the Roman Catholic Church, opposing innovation and modernizing tendencies, suppressing dissent, and sometimes, in its first few centuries, persecuting those who believed differently. More recently, the congregation has engaged in the suppression of some of Catholicism's most innovative and committed thinkers, such as Yves Congar, Hans Küng, Charles Curran, Matthew Fox, and Jon Sobrino and other liberation theologians. In light of the history of the Congregation of the Faith, such conservative statements as those released this week are hardly surprising, though they are quite unwelcome.

It is natural for members of various Christian Churches to believe that the institutions to which they belong are the best representatives of Christ's body on earth--otherwise, why wouldn't they join a different Church? It is disingenuous, however, for the leader of a Church that has committed itself "irrevocably" (to use Pope John Paul II's word in Ut Unum Sint [That They May Be One] 3, emphasis original) to ecumenism to claim to be interested in unity while at the same time declaring that all other Christians belong to Churches that are in some way deficient. How different was the attitude of Benedict's predecessors, who wrote, "In subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the [Roman] Catholic Church--for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame" (Unitatis Redintegratio 3). In Benedict's view, at various times in history groups of Christians wandered from the original, pure Roman Catholic Church, and any notion of Christian unity today is predicated on the idea of those groups abandoning their errors and returning to the Roman Catholic fold. The pope's problem seems to be that he is a theologian rather than a historian. Otherwise he could not possibly make such outrageous statements and think that they were compatible with the spirit of ecumenism that his immediate predecessors promoted.

One of the pope's most strident arguments against the validity of other Churches is that they can't trace their bishops' lineages back to the original apostles, as the bishops in the Roman Catholic Church can. There are three problems with this idea.

First, many Protestants deny the importance of apostolic succession as a guarantor of legitimacy. They would argue that faithfulness to the Bible and/or the teachings of Christ is a better measure of authentic Christian faith than the ability to trace one's spiritual ancestry through an ecclesiastical bureaucracy. A peripheral knowledge of the lives of some of the medieval and early modern popes (e.g., Stephen VI, Sergius III, Innocent VIII, Alexander VI) is enough to call the insistence on apostolic succession into serious question. Moreover, the Avignon Papacy and the divided lines of papal claimants in subsequent decades calls into serious question the legitimacy of the whole approach. Perhaps the strongest argument against the necessity of apostolic succession comes from the Apostle Paul, who was an acknowledged apostle despite not having been ordained by one of Jesus' original twelve disciples. In fact, Paul makes much of the fact that his authority came directly from Jesus Christ rather than from one of the apostles (Gal 1:11-12). Apostolic succession was a useful tool for combating incipient heresy and establishing the antiquity of the churches in particular locales, but merely stating that apostolic succession is a necessary prerequisite for being a true church does not make it so.

The second problem with the new document's insistence upon apostolic succession is the fact that at least three other Christian communions have apostolic succession claims that are as valid as that of the Roman Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox Churches, which split from the Roman Catholic Church in 1054, can trace their lineages back to the same apostles that the Roman Catholic Church can, a fact acknowledged by Unitatis Redintegratio 14. The Oriental Orthodox Churches, such as the Coptic and Ethiopic Orthodox Churches, split from the Roman Catholic Church several centuries earlier, but they too can trace their episcopal lineages back to the same apostles claimed by the Roman Catholic Church as its founders. Finally, the Anglican Church, which broke away from the Roman Catholic Church during the reign of King Henry VIII, can likewise trace the lineage of every bishop back through the first archbishop of Canterbury, Augustine. In addition to these three collections of Christian Churches, the Old Catholics and some Methodists also see value in the idea of apostolic succession, and they can trace their episcopal lineages just as far back as Catholic bishops can.

The third problem with the idea of apostolic succession is that the earliest bishops in certain places are simply unknown, and the lists produced in the third and fourth centuries that purported to identify every bishop back to the founding of the church in a particular area were often historically unreliable. Who was the founding bishop of Byzantium? Who brought the gospel to Alexandria? To Edessa? To Antioch? There are lists that give names (e.g., http://www.friesian.com/popes.htm), such as the Apostles Mark (Alexandria), Andrew (Byzantium), and Thaddeus (Armenia), but the association of the apostles with the founding of these churches is legendary, not historical. The most obvious breakdown of historicity in the realm of apostolic succession involves none other than the see occupied by the pope, the bishop of Rome. It is certain that Peter did make his way to Rome before the time of Nero, where he perished, apparently in the Neronian persecution following the Great Fire of Rome, but it is equally certain that the church in Rome predates Peter, as it also predates Paul's arrival there (Paul also apparently died during the Neronian persecution). The Roman Catholic Church may legitimately claim a close association with both Peter and Paul, but it may not legitimately claim that either was the founder of the church there. The fact of the matter is that the gospel reached Rome, Alexandria, Antioch, Edessa, and other early centers of Christianity in the hands of unknown, faithful Christians, not apostles, and the legitimacy of the churches established there did not suffer in the least because of it.

All the talk in the new document about apostolic succession is merely a smokescreen, however, for the main point that the Congregation of the Faith and the pope wanted to drive home: recognition of the absolute primacy of the pope. After playing with the words "subsists in" (Lumen Gentium [Dogmatic Constitution on the Church] 8) and "church" (Unitatis Redintegratio 14) in an effort to make them mean something other than what they originally meant, the document gets down to the nitty-gritty. "Since communion with the Catholic Church, the visible head of which is the Bishop of Rome and the Successor of Peter, is not some external complement to a particular Church but rather one of its internal constitutive principles, these venerable Christian communities lack something in their condition as particular churches." From an ecumenical standpoint, this position is a non-starter. Communion with Rome and acknowledging the authority of the pope as bishop of Rome is a far different matter from recognizing the pope as the "visible head" of the entire church, without peer. The pope is an intelligent man, and he knows that discussions with other Churches will make no progress on the basis of this prerequisite, so the only conclusion that can be drawn is that the pope, despite his protestations, has no interest in pursuing ecumenism. Trying to persuade other Christians to become Roman Catholics, which is evidently the pope's approach to other Churches, is not ecumenism, it's proselytism.

Fortunately, this document does not represent the viewpoint of all Catholics, either laypeople or scholars. Many ordinary Catholics would scoff at the idea that other denominations were not legitimate Churches, which just happen to have different ideas about certain topics and different ways of expressing a common Christianity. Similarly, many Catholic scholars are doing impressive work in areas such as theology, history, biblical study, and ethics, work that interacts with ideas produced by non-Catholic scholars. In the classroom and in publications, Catholics and non-Catholics learn from each other, challenge one another, and, perhaps most importantly, respect one another.

How does one define the Church? Christians have many different understandings of the term, and Catholics are divided among themselves, as are non-Catholics. The ecumenical movement is engaged in addressing this issue in thoughtful, meaningful, and respectful ways. Will the narrow-minded view expressed in "Responses" be the death-knell of the ecumenical movement? Hardly. Unity among Christians is too important an idea to be set aside. Will the document set back ecumenical efforts? Perhaps, but Christians committed to Christian unity--Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant alike--will get beyond it. The ecumenical movement is alive and well, and no intemperate pronouncement from the Congregation of the Faith, or the current pope, can restrain it for long. Even if ecumenism, at least as it involves the Roman Catholic Church's connection with other Churches, is temporarily set back a hundred years, that distance can be closed either by changes of heart or changes of leadership.


TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: apostolic; catholic; fascinatedwcatholics; givemerome; obsessionwithrome; papistsrule; pope; protestant; solascriptura
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To: kosta50

So you are suggesting that Protestant churches are satanic in origin???

And what if you’re wrong??? Suppose the Holy Spirit is leading people to the Protestant churches...That would make you guilty of blaspheme of the Holy Spirit...

You could be in a heap of trouble...


121 posted on 07/23/2007 9:28:54 AM PDT by Iscool (OK, I'm Back...Now what were your other two wishes???)
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To: kosta50
is that what God wants, a "me church?"

Now you're gettin' it...Lots of you folks 'go' to a church...

I AM the church...

122 posted on 07/23/2007 9:31:36 AM PDT by Iscool (OK, I'm Back...Now what were your other two wishes???)
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To: Iscool
So you are suggesting that Protestant churches are satanic in origin???

They are and we were warned such wolves would steal away the faithful.

And what if you’re wrong??? Suppose the Holy Spirit is leading people to the Protestant churches...That would make you guilty of blaspheme of the Holy Spirit...

For the protestants to be correct the councils would have to be wrong which means the whole unified church which was united fully in doctrine would have to have been unguided by the Holy Spirit the Comforter who Christ promised would keep the church on the strait and narrow.
123 posted on 07/23/2007 9:33:10 AM PDT by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: kawaii

I think the bible teaches in Job that God is in control even of Satan.


124 posted on 07/23/2007 9:33:47 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: kawaii; xzins; Gamecock
i’m more inclined to suggest that Martin Luther broke his vow at the temptation of Satan...

You must be one of those few remaining Catholics who actually believes there is a Satan.

125 posted on 07/23/2007 9:34:27 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: xzins; kosta50; kawaii
As determined by what they wrote. After all, we do have their writings.

Yes, and don't neglect the fact that we *also* have the writings of people that knew the Apostles personally and were appointed by the Apostles to lead the Church when they passed to their reward.

Polycarp sat and learned at the very feet of St. John. Clement of Rome knew Peter personally and was said to have "the teaching of the Apostles still ringing in his ears."

Would you agree that these folks--though certainly not infallible as the Apostles were--are irreplaceable, critical witnesses to what the Apostolic doctrine actually was?

126 posted on 07/23/2007 9:35:51 AM PDT by Claud
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To: kawaii
For the protestants to be correct the councils would have to be wrong which means the whole unified church which was united fully in doctrine would have to have been unguided by the Holy Spirit the Comforter who Christ promised would keep the church on the strait and narrow.

Very, very well said!

127 posted on 07/23/2007 9:39:10 AM PDT by Claud
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To: P-Marlowe

I’m not a Catholic!


128 posted on 07/23/2007 9:39:58 AM PDT by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: Claud

I have read them. They are in total agreement with Protestants.


129 posted on 07/23/2007 9:41:27 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: kawaii
I’m not a Catholic!

Then you must be a Protestant.

130 posted on 07/23/2007 9:41:42 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: xzins

Scripture tells us that Satan will be allowed a time of dominion and it also tells us to hold fast to the Traditions we’ve been taught.


131 posted on 07/23/2007 9:41:58 AM PDT by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: kawaii; P-Marlowe

you mean Roman Catholic, don’t you?


132 posted on 07/23/2007 9:42:20 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain And Proud of It! Those who support the troops will pray for them to WIN!)
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To: kawaii
you've got it backwards mate. protestants have always accused the Catholics and Orthodox of not being true churches on account of practices (like the Eucharist and beleif that it's really the Body and Blood of Christ, like Confession, like icons, etc) if i had a dollar for every time some protestant zealot accused the Apostolic churches of idolotry I could afford to debunk it with a documentary and pay to air it.

Congratulations. You missed the point completely.

133 posted on 07/23/2007 9:42:24 AM PDT by Frumanchu (Jerry Falwell: Now a Calvinist in Glory)
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To: P-Marlowe

Not according to the dictionary:

Protestant definition

n.
1. A member of a Western Christian church whose faith and practice are founded on the principles of the Reformation, especially in the acceptance of the Bible as the sole source of revelation, in justification by faith alone, and in the universal priesthood of all the believers.
2. A member of a Western Christian church adhering to the theologies of Luther, Calvin, or Zwingli.
3. One of the German princes and cities that supported the doctrines of Luther and protested against the decision of the second Diet of Speyer (1529) to enforce the Edict of Worms (1521) and deny toleration to Lutherans.


134 posted on 07/23/2007 9:43:28 AM PDT by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: xzins

in as much as marlowes article talks only abou Roman Catholics?


135 posted on 07/23/2007 9:44:16 AM PDT by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: kawaii
Whereas protestants appeal to which authority? the authority of law school flunkies to reinterpret for themselves?

For someone so intent on ridiculing Protestantism, you sure do have a horrible working knowledge of it.

Oh, and given the historical information that's been presented about some past popes, you might want to think twice about trying to argue against Protestantism by means of slandering the Reformers. It really does cheapen your argument even more.

136 posted on 07/23/2007 9:45:09 AM PDT by Frumanchu (Jerry Falwell: Now a Calvinist in Glory)
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To: kawaii
i’m more inclined to suggest that Martin Luther broke his vow at the temptation of Satan...

That's because you're more interested in slander and insult than rational discussion. So far the only thing that has been consistently demonstrated in your posts is a complete lack of knowledge of historical Protestantism and a preference for rapid-fire insults.

Do you have any intention of carrying on meaningful dialog here, or should we expect more of the same?

137 posted on 07/23/2007 9:49:08 AM PDT by Frumanchu (Jerry Falwell: Now a Calvinist in Glory)
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To: Frumanchu

considering as all the weird-bad Popes were well after the Latins broke off from the Apostolic church I’d advise you take up casting aspersions on their character with a latin who might care.

the reformers btw is a silly word. they didn’t reform anything they went off in a huff and created their own churches.


138 posted on 07/23/2007 9:49:43 AM PDT by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: kawaii
For the protestants to be correct the councils would have to be wrong which means the whole unified church which was united fully in doctrine would have to have been unguided by the Holy Spirit the Comforter who Christ promised would keep the church on the strait and narrow.

Which councils would those be?

139 posted on 07/23/2007 9:50:53 AM PDT by Frumanchu (Jerry Falwell: Now a Calvinist in Glory)
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To: Frumanchu
Do you have any intention of carrying on meaningful dialog here, or should we expect more of the same?

Well if you're interested in renouncing protestant heresies perhaps... interestingly 'cant we all discuss this calmly' folks never seem to show up when accusations of idolotry are being levied, or nonsense words like 'the magisterum'.
140 posted on 07/23/2007 9:51:34 AM PDT by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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