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To: GCC Catholic
Even a little research into some of these groups, especially the Albigenses and the Cathari, should make the Baptists (and any Christian for that matter) not want to identify with them.

I'd agree with that. Until I had read this article, I had thought the "trail of blood/Baptist successionism" claim was based on doctrine (Christology, Soteriology) and not polity (autonomous government, closed/members-only communion, credo-baptism by immersion). Generally speaking, Baptist preachers in 19th-century America eschewed the formal doctrinal training other clergy received. One joke during that time defined a Methodist as "a Baptist who has learned to read and write." It wouldn't surprise me if "Trail of Blood" author J. M. Carroll had no idea (or cared) what these groups actually believed. Baptists historically are anti-creedal in their beliefs, as the creeds themselves were created by "established religions" and therefore suspect of containing error.

You can find the entire tract "The Trail of Blood" online. Note that the Reformers - Luther, Calvin, et al - fare little better than the Catholics do in it's brief survey of church history:

During all these hard struggles for Reformation, continuous and valuable aid was given to the reformers, by many Ana-Baptists, or whatever other name they bore. Hoping for some relief from their own bitter lot, they came out of their hiding places and fought bravely with the reformers, but they were doomed to fearful disappointment. They were from now on to have two additional persecuting enemies. Both the Lutheran and Presbyterian Churches brought out of their Catholic Mother many of her evils, among them her idea of a State Church. They both soon became Established Churches. Both were soon in the persecuting business, falling little, if any, short of their Catholic Mother.
In it's conclusion/afterword, author J. M. Carroll lists what he considers the distinctives that mark a "true church". Note that specific beliefs re Christology, soteriology, etc aren't among them:
FUNDAMENTAL DOCTRINES

1. A spiritual Church, Christ its founder, its only head and law giver.

2. Its ordinances, only two, Baptism and the Lord's Supper. They are typical and memorial, not saving.

3. Its officers, only two, bishops or pastors and deacons; they are servants of the church.

4. Its Government, a pure Democracy, and that executive only, never legislative.

5. Its laws and doctrines: The New Testament and that only.

6. Its members. Believers only, they saved by grace, not works, through the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit.

7. Its requirements. Believers on entering the church to be baptized, that by immersion, then obedience and loyalty to all New Testament laws.

8. The various churches -- separate and independent in their execution of laws and discipline and in their responsibilities to God--but cooperative in work.

9. Complete separation of Church and State.

10. Absolute Religious liberty for all.


11 posted on 07/19/2007 12:03:02 PM PDT by Alex Murphy
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To: Alex Murphy

Yes, reading the rest of the article, I see that too. Those ten marks you list are a lot more reasonable too. I’ll have to check that link, but can’t do it right now. Thanks for passing it along.


12 posted on 07/19/2007 12:14:11 PM PDT by GCC Catholic (Sour grapes make terrible whine.)
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To: Alex Murphy

Interesting fundamental doctrines. Let’s see how the Baptist Church does:

1. A spiritual Church, Christ its founder, its only head and law giver.
- the Baptist umbrella was founded by John Smyth in Amsterdam in 1605.
- 0 / 0

2. Its ordinances, only two, Baptism and the Lord’s Supper.
- Baptists symbolically celebrate the Lord’s Supper only; they do Baptism.
- 1/2 / 1/2

3. Its officers, only two, bishops or pastors and deacons;
- Doesn’t it list three here? Going out to various Baptist sites, they list ministers, general secretaries and officers of all kinds.
- 0 / 1/2

4. Its Government, a pure Democracy, and that executive only, never legislative.
- Huh? Why would a church government be a democracy? Right is right and wrong is wrong. It has nothing to do with democracy. How could they be democratic anyway? Does every seat in the pew get a vote? Don’t see how that could be done.
- 0 / 1/2

5. Its laws and doctrines: The New Testament and that only.
- Nothing of the Old Testament is valid? Therefore, there should be no mention of the OT in any law or doctrine in a Baptist website. Fail.
- 0 / 1/2

6. Its members. Believers only, they saved by grace, not works, through the regenerating power of
the Holy Spirit.
- I’d go with this.
- 1 / 1-1/2

7. Its requirements. Believers on entering the church to be baptized, that by immersion, then
obedience and loyalty to all New Testament laws.
- Okay.
- 1 / 2-1/2

8. The various churches — separate and independent in their execution of laws and discipline and in
their responsibilities to God—but cooperative in work.
- Okay, I’d go for the separation of church and church
- 1 / 3-1/2

9. Complete separation of Church and State.
- Not with a lot of Baptists (as long as they form the State)
- 1/2 / 4

10. Absolute Religious liberty for all.
- nope
- 0 / 4


I’d give the Baptists a rough 4 out of 10. But in looking at this list, I wonder how many of these really make a TRUE Church, rather than looking at the founder. Smyth versus Jesus Christ. I’d have to go with Jesus.


17 posted on 07/19/2007 2:00:22 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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