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To: DanielLongo; Enosh

As usual, the most salient point of your post is ignored in typical bait and switch manner. Christ tells Mary not to touch him. Why could he not touch her? “Because, as stated by Christ, He had “not yet ascended to [His] Father.” John 20:17

Later, Christ appears to the apostles in Jerusalem and what does He tell them when they are afraid and think Christ is a spirit: “Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see;” Luke 24:39

Why were the apostles able to touch Christ to confirm He wasn’t a spirit and Mary wasn’t allowed to touch Him when she first encountered Christ outside the open tomb?

The obvious (and only) answer to the question: Because Christ, in the intervening period between His encounter with Mary and His appearance to the apostles, had “ascended to [His] Father.”

More importantly, it is obvious Christ “appeared” to Paul on the road to Damascus. What did Paul write in 1 Cor. 9:1: “Am I not an apostle? am I not free? HAVE I NOT SEEN JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD? are not ye my work in the Lord?”

In 1 Cor. 15 Paul writes:

5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all HE WAS SEEN OF ME ALSO, as of one born out of due time.

Paul was an Apostle. An Apostle is a special witness of Christ as one who has personally seen Christ and is able to testify of Christ and His resurrection from personal knowledge.

So if you want to accept the mental gymnast’s version, Paul writes in 1 Cor. 15 about all the others who had “seen” Christ ON EARTH after his resurrection, but when Paul wrote that he had “seen” Christ, he hadn’t really “seen” Christ ON EARTH the way the others had; rather Christ appeared to Paul FROM HEAVEN in vision. Thus, according to the mental gymnast’s version, Christ was “seen” by Paul by remote satellite image from Heaven. And furthermore, those who journeyed with Paul on the road to Damascus who HEARD CHRIST’S VOICE were able to hear it not because Christ had “appeared” there, but because the satellite broadcast not only included video feed, but also audio feed.

So there you have it according to the mental gymnast. That is why all the others had actually “seen” Christ ON EARTH after his resurrection, but Paul had only actually “seen” Chirst FROM HEAVEN (via satellite broadcast). You see, you just have to give Paul’s use of “seen” a “nuanced” reading from verses 5, 6, and 7 when he is referring to Christ’s appearance to Peter, James, the apostles and the 500 brethren and Paul’s use of “seen” in verse 8 when talking about Christ’s appearance to him.

It all makes perfect illogical sense, eh?


298 posted on 07/18/2007 12:53:59 AM PDT by ComeUpHigher
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To: ComeUpHigher; DanielLongo
"Because, as stated by Christ, He had “not yet ascended to [His] Father."

Interesting that you would inject the word "His," when He first says "the," and then says "my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."

"most salient point" ("Do not hold on to me...")

How is this the "most salient point?" What does it mean to you? Was Jesus dirty in some way? Perhaps he didn't want to be delayed from doing something? (Such as meeting his disciples?)

How's this for a "most salient point?" Christ ascended into Heaven only once.

299 posted on 07/18/2007 4:07:51 AM PDT by Enosh (†)
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To: ComeUpHigher; Colofornian; aMorePerfectUnion
You might want to take a look at #289 above. I found it most instructive when I went to the Greek. The Young's Literal translation is also instructive:

Young's Literal Translation John 20:17 Jesus saith to her, `Be not touching me, for I have not yet ascended unto my Father; and be going on to my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and to your God.`

The agreement between the Greek verbs conveys the meaning that Jesus was telling Mary Magdalene to not focus on keeping Him with her but to get back to the disciples and tell them He is going to ascend to God and will meet with them before going. The verb agreements give a connection, as in 'don't do this, do this instead'.

305 posted on 07/18/2007 10:26:08 AM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for those in the womb.)
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To: ComeUpHigher
This offering from you is a bit of specious hyperbole: "So there you have it according to the mental gymnast. That is why all the others had actually “seen” Christ ON EARTH after his resurrection, but Paul had only actually “seen” Chirst FROM HEAVEN." Before His Ascension, very many did see Him and even touch Him. After His resurrection, to 'see' Him was identified as a heavenly vision, as Paul clearly stated too. Did you miss that part about 'heavenly vision', verse 19, Acts Chapter 26, I think.

Is there some strategy to try and confuse scriptures? Clearly Jesus was with --on Earth-- those who saw Him prior to His Ascension. But even Paul/Saul stated that his 'seeing Him' was a heavenly vision, and Sual never claimed to touch or be touched by Jesus on the Damascus Road. Why are you Mormon folks trying to confuse this issue? Is there some Mormon strategy I should be told about here, for code purposes?

308 posted on 07/18/2007 1:49:33 PM PDT by papagall (Attaboys are cheap; one dagnabit cancels out dozens of them.)
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